UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

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GrahamC
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UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by GrahamC » Sun 25 Nov 2018 21:22

So, to all those who argued with me so vehemently before Brexit that the EU was nothing more than a ‘gentleman’s club’. As I recall, one poster referred to a benign EU ‘club’ which just muddles on.

So, how, do you now explain Macron’s latest decree that the UK will not be ‘allowed’ to leave the EU unless we cede our territorial fishing rights?

Like pretty much everyone on this site, I am an ardent pro European and Francophile. But is it not now plain for all to see what Brussels has become?

This is, in no sense, a European Union. It’s a European Empire in the making. Bad for us, bad for France, bad for Europe.

Perhaps this goes some way to explain all the FREXIT graphiti I’m seeing around the PO.

And to anticipate the responses: no we don’t deserve to be punished for exercising our treaty rights.
Last edited by GrahamC on Fri 30 Nov 2018 17:08, edited 1 time in total.

martyn94
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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by martyn94 » Sun 25 Nov 2018 21:53

Can you point to any reliable source of news that says anything even remotely like this? As things stand, we are headed out of the EU, pretty soon, whether we or M Macron like it or not. Assuming it doesn’t all go tits up in the HoC next week (and even that of course doesn’t stop us leaving the EU: it just makes the shambles even worse)

When an avowed Europhile starts talking about a “European Empire”, I start to doubt their sanity, or at least their grasp of English.

And why on earth shouldn’t other states try to “punish us” for “exercising our treaty rights”, if they don’t like the results and are in a position to punish us for producing them? International relations are not the vicar’s tea-party. But since you are, yet again, talking in riddles, it was a mistake on my part to rise to the bait.

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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by martyn94 » Mon 26 Nov 2018 13:36

I can’t help mentioning your typo “the UK is not allowed to leave the UK”.

If only we could: we could set up a government in exile. All 48% of us, at the last count.

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Gus Morris
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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by Gus Morris » Tue 27 Nov 2018 14:26

I am European. Within the last century or so conflicts between warring European countries have sparked two world wars and brought unimaginable levels of death and suffering upon countless millions.

Constructing a workable European Union was never going to be easy. But probably the best guarantee that WW3 would not start in the old continent. We live in an era where there is very little mass consensus on any topic. The dilemma of Europe can easily be seen in the immigrant crisis. On the one hand we have the bleeding hearts brigade. People who only see good in everybody. Then we travel across the spectrum to the hardened nationalists to whom all "outsiders" are anathema. How do we reconcile these views?

To solve this and other similar problems requires skill and patience. I too believe that there are major defects in the way the EU is run. What I cannot condone is the action of the UK in trying to destabilise an organisation that, despite many faults, is trying to sail the ship of state through turbulent waters.

Gus

GrahamC
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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by GrahamC » Fri 30 Nov 2018 17:04

I think the nub of the problem is that the EU overeached itself when it rammed through the Euopean Constitution under the guise of the ‘Lisbon Treaty’ in blatant contravention of its own rules.

A project to federalise a group of European nations with such intensely deep and rich histories and such strong senses of national identity was never going to be possible in such a short time table. Perhaps 100-200 years, certainly not 50.

The UK is not trying to destablise Europe, it simply exercised its treaty right to leave. The purpose of treaties is to establish a set of agreed rules for all who sign up to them. It’s absurd to suggest that punishment should be meted out to signatories who exercise their rights. In fact, if you bother to read it, you’ll see that the Lisbon Treaty explicitly provides for the event.

In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union.

It’s clear now for all who care to see it, that the Euopean project is a project to subordinate all European nations under a central government.

If that is what the democracies of Europe overwhelmingly elect to do then I would not be one to argue. But the fact of the matter is, there is no overwhelming support from the demos. If anything quite the reverse. At best, in a few European countries, support for federalisation might struggle towards 50%. To federalise under circumstances would be to invite civil war. If there is one and only one political move that absolutely requires ‘mass consensus’ then surely it must be the decision to abandon one’s current political system for another.

The self-appointed leaders of the drive towards Europe have no mandate from their electorate.
Last edited by GrahamC on Fri 30 Nov 2018 17:58, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by GrahamC » Fri 30 Nov 2018 17:08

martyn94 wrote:
Sun 25 Nov 2018 21:53
Can you point to any reliable source of news that says anything even remotely like this? As things stand, we are headed out of the EU, pretty soon, whether we or M Macron like it or not. Assuming it doesn’t all go tits up in the HoC next week (and even that of course doesn’t stop us leaving the EU: it just makes the shambles even worse)

When an avowed Europhile starts talking about a “European Empire”, I start to doubt their sanity, or at least their grasp of English.

And why on earth shouldn’t other states try to “punish us” for “exercising our treaty rights”, if they don’t like the results and are in a position to punish us for producing them? International relations are not the vicar’s tea-party. But since you are, yet again, talking in riddles, it was a mistake on my part to rise to the bait.
You can research the Macron quote for yourself Martyn. It’s in the Guardian and the Telegraph, so you can choose your political flavour. Both left and right interpret his remarks in the same way.

And while you’re at it, read the COD definitions for Empires and Federations. You’ll quickly see which most closely describes the current European governmental structure. It might then help you to understand why some pro-EU ‘luminaries’ now openly refer to the term.

I believe it was you who described the EU broadly as a benign muddle, or similar. Laughable, now that we've seen how it’s acting towards the UK.
Last edited by GrahamC on Fri 30 Nov 2018 17:49, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by GrahamC » Fri 30 Nov 2018 17:09

martyn94 wrote:
Mon 26 Nov 2018 13:36
I can’t help mentioning your typo “the UK is not allowed to leave the UK”.

If only we could: we could set up a government in exile. All 48% of us, at the last count.
Fixed, thank you.

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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by GrahamC » Fri 30 Nov 2018 17:39

Gus Morris wrote:
Tue 27 Nov 2018 14:26
I am European. Within the last century or so conflicts between warring European countries have sparked two world wars and brought unimaginable levels of death and suffering upon countless millions.

Constructing a workable European Union was never going to be easy. But probably the best guarantee that WW3 would not start in the old continent.

Gus
Nothing to do with the development of nuclear arsenals then? Or NATO? Or uniting against a common enemy - the USSR? Solely the result of the Common Market, latterly the EU? Despite the fact that Germany was the UK’s biggest and closest trading partner before WW1, thus dispelling the myth that close partners can’t war against eachother.

One of things I’ve hated most about the Remain debate is the attempt to claim for the EU all the credit for European peace. It’s thoroughly dishonest.

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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by GrahamC » Fri 30 Nov 2018 18:30

martyn94 wrote:
Sun 25 Nov 2018 21:53
And why on earth shouldn’t other states try to “punish us” for “exercising our treaty rights”, if they don’t like the results and are in a position to punish us for producing them? International relations are not the vicar’s tea-party.
I’m genuinely intrigued to know what you think the EU stands to gain by adopting a punitive approach to the UK.

Do you believe that punishment is likely to persuade Leavers that their beliefs are wrong, thereby winning their hearts and minds for Europe?

Or, do you believe that punishment would be a way to drive us back into the EU thereby effectively making EU membership compulsory.

Or, do you see punishment as a scorched earth policy to be used ‘pour encourager les autres’ even though most of the earth to be scorched would be the EU’s, given the massive trade imbalance.

Struggling to see the intellectual sense of your arguments, though I understand your genuinely pro-Europe emotions.

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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by martyn94 » Sat 01 Dec 2018 01:18

I imagine that the rest of them have long since given up on us. But M Juncker and his pals are very well aware that there are others in the remaining 27 who might be tempted to dodge the column if they see us getting away with it.

You will have noticed that I carefully put “punish” in quotes. On person’s punishment (especially if self-inflicted) is another person’s (or another 27 people’s) rational calculation. It is typical Brexiteer vanity to think that this process is still all about the UK: that train left a couple of years ago.

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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by martyn94 » Sat 01 Dec 2018 01:30

GrahamC wrote:
Sun 25 Nov 2018 21:53


Do you believe that punishment is likely to persuade Leavers that their beliefs are wrong, thereby winning their hearts and minds for Europe?

There is a wonderful quote attributed to LBJ about the original hearts and minds campaign in the Vietnam war

“If you’ve got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will surely follow”

His tragedy was that the US never did have the Vietcong by the balls. Our tragedy is that the EU certainly do have us by ours. All considered, I think they have been very nice about it.

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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by Gus Morris » Sat 01 Dec 2018 11:23

GrahamC wrote:
Fri 30 Nov 2018 17:39
Gus Morris wrote:
Tue 27 Nov 2018 14:26
I am European. Within the last century or so conflicts between warring European countries have sparked two world wars and brought unimaginable levels of death and suffering upon countless millions.

Constructing a workable European Union was never going to be easy. But probably the best guarantee that WW3 would not start in the old continent.

Gus
Nothing to do with the development of nuclear arsenals then? Or NATO? Or uniting against a common enemy - the USSR? Solely the result of the Common Market, latterly the EU? Despite the fact that Germany was the UK’s biggest and closest trading partner before WW1, thus dispelling the myth that close partners can’t war against each other.

One of things I’ve hated most about the Remain debate is the attempt to claim for the EU all the credit for European peace. It’s thoroughly dishonest.
I don't think I ever gave the EU, or its predecessors, total credit for peace in Europe. But let's be realistic. Nuclear arsenals have done nothing to stop conventional wars. There is a credible argument that the Cold War, and thus NATO, resulted from neo-Conservative policies in the USA. To keep the country united in the euphoria of the post-war era they ramped up the concept of a common enemy. To combat the enemy within they looked for an enemy without. Nothing to do with keeping Europe stable.

Gus

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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by GrahamC » Mon 03 Dec 2018 18:54

Dodge the column? Yes precisely. Heaven forbid that the EU project should seek consensus amongst people comprising its Treaty partners. Heaven forbid that, should the demos want a looser relationship, the EU should acquiesce. Much better to continue to centralise power and rule by edict just as the continent’s two great hegemons always wanted.

Perhaps you both don’t see some of the wilder suggestions coming from Paris (refusal of landing rights, refusal to recognise pilots licences etc) as punishment, but you're probably in a minority of two.

One of the consistently distressing themes is just how far Remainers will go to disavow democratic outcomes and disrespect their own country in their blind thrall to Brussels. Alive to every small point of dislike about the turn of events in the UK, but completely blind to the real character of Brussels.

Really, you ought to be proud of the fact that the UK still has a mostly democratic system. And you ought to be wary of an organisation that breaks its own laws when the fancy takes it. And above all it’s time to stop conflating your and our vision of a strong, unified synergistic, cooperative Europe with the grotesque bastardisation of federalism that is the EU.
Last edited by GrahamC on Mon 03 Dec 2018 19:42, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by GrahamC » Mon 03 Dec 2018 19:05

Seriously delusional stuff, Gus. If you’d been in the services and seen the int you wouldn’t believe for a second that the Soviet threat wasn’t real. Or, alternatively, ask any Czech, Slovack, Hungarian, Estonian, Latvian or ....But, we’re off topic. This thread is about the Soviet Union of Europe.

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Re: UK ‘Not Allowed’ to Leave the EU

Post by russell » Thu 06 Dec 2018 09:56

GrahamC wrote:
Mon 03 Dec 2018 19:05
This thread is about the Soviet Union of Europe.
That's a bit extreme Graham. The EU is a democratic entity. The biggest problem IMHO is that many members are apathetic and don't bother to take part in the decision making processes. They then blame "The EU" for making decisions that they don't like.

Russell

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