Selling your house !!

[thumbelina]

Thumbs,you are incorrect about fees. It is the SELLER who pays the agent,though they may,if they can get away with it, load this onto the price of the house,so,in practice it's the buyer who shells out.

Well in that case, I was stitched up by my crap estate agent then!

I ended up shelling out well in excess of 30 000 euros in estate agent and notary fees when I bought this property!

[Marguerite & Steve]

Who pays the fees is a grey area as it could be built in the price,if not then the buyer pays, and the seller pays the notaire fees, well that is what I am lead to believe ???, but regardless who is paying, the agent still receives an awful lot of money, but like you say Thumbs not the case for Louise or Mark, either way, let this be lesson to all of us.


Thumbs please don't let the flowers be an omen, but yes i see where your coming from..

[polremy]

" the seller pays the notaire fees,"

We were told that the seller has NO fees to pay, apart from the agent's.
The only cost on selling (we were told) is for various tests on electricity, termites and something else that I've forgotten.

[thumbelina]

Don't worry, it won't be! Your wedding will be just perfect!!!

And that's what happened when we bought, Pol.

I'm sorry to hark on, John, but I don't believe that any agent can be expected to check that everyone else in the chain is doing their job properly or be expected to think, for example, 'oh, I'll just ring the notary and check that the letter that he received from A&L's bank confirming there is no outstanding mortgage on the property is not out of date'.

Everyone involved is, hopefully, a professional who knows their job and what to do and how to do it. As a professional, I would find it INSUPPORTABLE if an outsider came behind me checking up on my every move!

The fact is, in this instance, the notary made a cock up. End of. Appalling, unprofessional, dreadful, totally horrendous for A&L obviously, but a human error nonetheless.

[Marguerite & Steve]

" the seller pays the notaire fees,"

.

ooops my mistake, got it wrapped around my neck, the buyer pays the Notaire fees....made my mind up I am not bloody selling...

[john]

I'm sorry to hark on, John, but I don't believe that any agent can be expected to check that everyone else in the chain is doing their job properly .

Why on earth not? It's the very least I'd expect from someone I was paying an awful lot of money to act on my behalf. I guess I'm also "harping on" about this,as I had a very bad experience when selling a property in the UK,where the agent had simply not kept on top of things,in this case with the solicitors and my buyer's Building Soc. So a very similar situation to A+L.

As far as your recent purchase and 30k is concerned ,without knowing the details,clearly none of us are qualified to comment,ie what you paid,and to whom,but,there is no doubt that the first principle here is (as in UK) Seller pays estate agent. Buyer pays notary/solicitor.

[thumbelina]

In fact, it would appear that there are no hard and fast rules as to WHO pays the agency fees and, indeed, it would appear to be advantageous to the purchaser to pay them.

* Make sure you do your sums correctly. In France it is usually the buyer who pays all the fees. On top of the 'net' purchase price of the property, there will be notaire's fees (including stamp duty), which are usually about 6-8 per cent of the net purchase price. You will also have to pay the French agent's fees and these can vary from 4-15 per cent, though 7-8 per cent is more common. The price displayed in a French agent's window should include the agent's fee (the price will be followed by the letters FAI. if this is the case). However, it will not include the notaire's fee, so you'll need to add this in.

http://www.frenchentree.com/languedoc-p ... p?id=25116

Who Pays the French Estate Agent Fees?

Wednesday 01 July 2009

Is it the seller, or is it the buyer who is responsible for the commission payable to a French estate agent?

One of the regular queries we receive into the office concerns the issue of liability for the payment of estate agent fees.

In some cases the sellers pay the fees, although a number of buyers report that they have been required to pick up the bill. Practice does not appear to be uniform.

So what does the law say on this matter?
Mandat de Vente

In order for an estate agent in France to act on behalf of a seller, they are required to enter into a written contract with them, called a ‘mandat de vente’.

The contract will state the price at which the agent is required to offer the property, together with the commission that will be payable and who will pay it – seller or buyer. The contract can say either.

Many of the mandats do, in fact, state that responsibility for the fees is to be met by the buyer, but this clause is only enforceable if it is accepted by the buyer! The buyer is not a party to the contract between the seller and the agent, and cannot be bound by it.

In reality, the clause is used by estate agents to try and persuade sellers that using their services will cost them nothing! This would only be the case if the property was sold at the asking price, and the buyer also agreed to pick up responsibility for the commission.

Whilst many buyers baulk at the idea of having to accept responsibility for the agent’s fees, in practice, it is normally to their advantage to do so, as it reduces the level of stamp duty payable on the property.

If the buyer accepts responsibility for the agent fees, and they are also then listed separately as such in the sale contract, they are excluded from the calculation of the stamp duty that is payable. They also reduce the level of the notaire's fees.

As the amount of stamp duty and notaire's fees are a percentage of the sale price, the lower the sale price, then the lower the level of stamp duty and fees that are payable.

Only if the agents fees were not separately identified in the sale contract would be total sum be then used in the calculation of the notaire's fees and taxes.

Accordingly, although a purchaser may well feel aggrieved about having to accept responsibility for the agent's commission, it can be used to reduce the total purchase costs!

Of course, the situation may well be more difficult where the seller is unwilling to negotiate on the purchase price, but as most sellers place their property on the market in the expectation that they will be beaten down on the asking price, this can normally be achieved, particularly in current market circumstances.

If, as a buyer, you object to accepting responsibility for the fees, then you are under no legal obligation to do so; if the seller or agent insists that you do so, then your response is going to depend on the level of the negotiating position you think you hold. If there is some margin for negotiation, then you should seek to reduce the purchase price of the property by at least an equal amount.
Commission is Negotiable

Neither is the level of the commission regulated; it is entirely for the seller and the agent to agree between them.

The level of the fee might range from around 4% up to 10% of the value of the property, with the rate lower in relation to value.

By European standards these commission levels are high, but there is nothing to stop the seller negotiating down a rate that may be demanded by an agent, as part of the discussions concerning the mandat. Much will depend on market circumstances and the desirability of the property. If the agent thinks they can sell it quickly, they are more likely to offer a lower commission!

Smaller independent agents are likely to be more flexible in the negotiation of their rates than the national networks.

http://www.french-property.com/news/fre ... te_france/

# Notaire fees - For an existing property, be prepared for 8 percent of the purchase price as the cost for the legal fees. For a new build property, assume 4 percent of the purchase price. In addition to the notaire fees, there will be the land/property registration fee which varies from region to region. You can choose your own notaire, or use the same notaire as the vendor - whichever you choose, the cost will be the same. Notaire fees can only be included in the mortgage for French tax payers. If you pay tax in another country, you will have to fund the notaire fees yourself.
# Agency fees - An amount between 5% and 10% can be charged and there is no hard and fast rule on whether it is the vendor or the buyer who pays the agents fees. If you are raising a mortgage you can include these fees in the mortgage if the agency fees are stated in the Compromis de vente.

http://france.angloinfo.com/countries/f ... usebuy.asp

[Santiago]

In the states they have an interesting system where you can have a listing agent and a buyers agent. The listing agent is hired by the seller to represent their property as well as possble. The buyers agent tries to find suitable buyers and help them choose the right property. I've never bought a house in the States but I bet it leads to all sorts of confusion.

I don't think I've ever been 100% happy with the sale or purchase of a house. Things always go wrong and all you can hope for is an agent and lawyer who are being open, diligent and helpful.

We think the agents and notaires are being paid a huge amount of money for what they do but we have to remember that agents do a lot of work for which they never get a penny and notaires give most of their fees to the state.

The most important thing is that the sale goes through and nobody gets duped.

[mand]

Well we are in the middle of buying and we are paying the notaire's fees the agents fees were included in the price of the property.

[Arthur and Lyn]

Thank you all for your support. I would just like to say that we don't blame Med and Mountain for what has happened. I agree with Thumbers its the notaires fault, and no one elses. In fact far from blaming Mark, we are totally reliant on him to sort this out. We may well take Louise up on her kind offer, but I think we will wait until AFTER we have the money, no more excuses for any more delays. Just keeping our fingers crossed it all happens at the end of this week. Will keep you all posted.
Arthur

[Sue]

Sorry John to quibble but in England the sellers pays the selling agent and his notary/solicitors fees and the buyer pays his notary/ solicitors fees. Dont know how it works over here but the majority of Building Societies wouldnt give any info to a selling agent (data protection act) and to be honest the solicitors tell him what they think he wants to hear. I worked in a solicitors for some 35 years the last 20 of them in conveyancing!

[john]

Sorry John to quibble but in England the sellers pays the selling agent and his notary/solicitors fees and the buyer pays his notary/ solicitors fees.

Erm,Sue.....isnt that what I said??!!

As you will know,the VAST majority of lawyers fees in a transaction are borne by the buyer. The cost to the seller is tiny.

[Santiago]

Surely the cost of the agent(s) is born by both parties. The seller may contract the agent and agree the percentage but at the end of the day the agent takes a bit in the middle of what the seller is prepared to accept and the buyer is prepared to pay.

Inflation is what actually pays the agent.

[Sue]

Sorry John you only said seller pays agents fees no mention of legal fees. To be honest I dont remember there being a lot of difference between the legal fees for buying and selling.

[john]

The cheque that the buyer pays to the solicitor/notaire,Sue, is MUCH larger,but of course what it's only fair to point out is that the vast majority of it is charges and taxes (eg search/land reg fees,stamp duty and other taxes),and doesn't go to the solicitor/notaire concerned. The seller does not get to pay these.

So, to that extent ,you and Santiago are both right if you are purely including the actual cost of the solicitor. But, as we've all found to our cost when buying houses,it's not as simple as that and the TOTAL bill can be eye watering.

So,I DO stick by my original statement;ie that usually the vast majority of costs re agents are borne by the seller,and the vast majority of costs re solicitor and related charges are borne by the Buyer.Perhaps,(if we are going to pedantic about this!) what I should have said was legal fees and charges as opposed to just solicitors/notaires costs.

But Santiago,I have bought and sold many properties both here and in the UK,and I can only remember paying agents fees when selling. I do not recall EVER paying an agent when buying. But maybe you've done it differently?

[Arthur and Lyn]

Just to keep you all informed. Both Mark and Louise telephoned us yesterday to say that the notaire has received the letter about the house being mortgage free, and has informed them that our money has been sent on its way!!!! Its not arrived yet, so will keep you all informed. Hopefully we will not have to get Mark to intervene again.
Arthur

[opas]

what a releif, I know you are not hole and dry yet.........but as good as.

Do a poll and separate a bottle and its screw top!

[Arthur and Lyn]

Thanks Opas
But as you know we are totally against all alcohol!!!!! Just heard from moneyCorp this morning that they now have the money but the notaire has neglected to send the reference so they can't pay it into our account until he does (its the rules because of money laundering).They are contacting him for the reference. AAAARGH I think I will have a drink.

Arthur

[opas]

No I did not know that, why should I?

Any way celebrate which ever way you find enjoyable.

[john]

Thanks Opas
But as you know we are totally against all alcohol!!!!! Just heard from moneyCorp this morning that they now have the money but the notaire has neglected to send the reference so they can't pay it into our account until he does (its the rules because of money laundering).They are contacting him for the reference. AAAARGH I think I will have a drink.

Arthur

It does sound like you are in the "final furlong " though Arthur (we too have in the past been hit by a similar money laundering stipulation),so I think your drink was well-deserved and no doubt very satisfying.

Thinking of you both.

[Marguerite & Steve]

But as you know we are totally against all alcohol!!!!! J

Arthur

...at last, have a good drink you both deserve it..

[Owens88]

Sounds like you got the apprentice notaire not the real one. I would be inclined to register a complaint a) to protect us others and b) get a rebate on their fees.

If they are never challenged thy will continue.

Glad you got there in the end. We need happy endings.

John

[Arthur and Lyn]

We intend to challenge, but only after we have got our money. Knowing frances lack of compensation culture though ( which in lots of ways is a good thing) I doubt if we will get anywhere. The notaire was very experienced, they have brand new posh offices on the outskirts of Prades ( no doubt paid for by all the interest they have accrued by hanging onto peoples money).
So we will see.

Arthur

[Arthur and Lyn]

Just to keep you all informed.

YIPPEE we have got our money, or will have by close of business today. Thanks to all for their messages of support,and a big thank you to Med and mountain for chasing it up.

Arthur

[polremy]

Don't spend it all in the same shop will you?

So glad you've (very very nearly) been paid for the house you "sold" over a month ago.
Disgraceful what you've had to put up with.

[sue and paul]

Well done - if I ever need someone patient, I know who to call!! Hope you enjoy the house hunting!

[thumbelina]

Good news!

And well done Mark and Louise!

[russell]

Glad you got it sorted out in the end and hope all goes well with your house purchase back in England.

Russell and Pat.

[Sav]

I'm glad it all worked out for you both

Cheers Sav

[Nigel]

So pleased for you both