Selling your house !!

Arthur and Lyn · Post by **Arthur and Lyn** » Sat 24 Jul 2010 16:52

Just to let you know pitfalls if you are thinking of selling your house. We got a buyer on 18th February this year and signed the first agreement on 18th March. We were told it takes about 3 months to go through. We had 2 days of "experts" looking at our village house because the young french couple wanted a mortgage. What we were not told is under a new french government initiative the banks are offering 100 % mortgages which our buyers had applied for.It was agreed eventually that completion would be no later than 30th June.... We arranged removals on 24thJune, staying with friends until completion.
This was postponed time and time again as no mortgage letter arrived, even though the mortgage had been agreed.
We went to notaire on 1st July to arrange a power of attorney and came to Uk without a completion date. This eventually happened a week last Thursday. Having been told the money would be paid into our bank the same day we were a little surprised to say the least the money was not in a week later.
On phoning the immobilier who sold our house, he agreed to contact the notaire. He phoned us back to say as the process had taken so long, the letter the notaire had saying we had no mortgage on the house had expired and he has to apply for another one. Hopefully he will receive this by next Thursday and we will have the money a week later. Nearly a month after completion and no guarantee of that. BEWARE ALL SELLERS

john · Post by **john** » Sat 24 Jul 2010 18:59

Sounds a thoroughly bizarre situation Arthur. How were the buyers able to complete with the notaire without actually coughing up the cash,so to speak?

It sounds as if the Agent has not been doing his job properly here,as it's his responsibility to ensure all ends are being tied up simultaneosly,(as in the UK).

This must be very worrying for you,esp as you are no longer "on the spot",and I trust it all goes through OK next week

polremy · Post by **polremy** » Sat 24 Jul 2010 19:36

I was just thinking of you two and how life was treating you back in England.
Aaaaaaaagh - we have all this to go through perhaps.
I agree with John, it is all a bit bizarre and I hope it is settled soon.
In the meantime, try and chill out - football season starts soon!

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Sun 25 Jul 2010 07:36

What a nightmare for you!!!!!

I have to say, I don't know that I agree that it's entirely the estate agent's fault. If you gave the power of attorney to the notary then, in my opinion, it's his responsibility to ensure that everything runs smoothly.

When all is said and done, he should have known that the letter had expired anyway.

I imagine that you will find that the notary has the money in HIS bank account - it's surely impossible that he would complete the deal without the buyer actually paying anything other than the 10% deposit and he's covering his backside by making sure all of the paperwork is correct before issuing the money.

Reminds me of a situation we had when we BOUGHT over here.

We paid for the house, and we paid a large fee to the notary. We were told that the balance of this sum would be reimbursed once all the land registry charges etc had been settled, which could be up to one year.

Time passed and, frankly, I forgot all about it.

Three years after we moved in, I was discussing the property with mum in law and she said that the answer to my question should be in the Acte de Vente. I didn't have an Acte de Vente. She assured me that this is impossible, you can't buy a house without one.

When she said this, all sorts of bells started ringing that I'd not been reimbursed any money from the notary etc etc etc. I duly called the notary to be told that, oh yes, there had been an oversight and my acte de vente and money were still there.

I was duly reimbursed THREE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED EUROS and given my acte de vente THREE YEARS after the purchase of the property!!!!

I'm afraid my opinion of notaries after this story - and yours - is now probably as low as it could go (except for old Mr Pous in Ceret who is brilliant lol!!)

Good luck A and L - keep us posted!!!!

john · Post by **john** » Sun 25 Jul 2010 09:15

thumbelina wrote:What a nightmare for you!!!!!

I have to say, I don't know that I agree that it's entirely the estate agent's fault. If you gave the power of attorney to the notary then, in my opinion, it's his responsibility to ensure that everything runs smoothly.

!!!!

Did not say that it was entirely the agent's fault ,Thumbs. What I did say was that he's not done his job properly,and I stand by that. Agents in France are ridiculously overpaid,and it's their responsibility to earn their corn by making sure everything is in place,and that the sale runs smoothly. In this case he has singularly failed.

I'd agree that the notaire has not exactly covered himself in glory either. Nor has the bank. I'd also concur that Pous in Céret is the best of a bad bunch re notaries.

Arthur and Lyn · Post by **Arthur and Lyn** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 13:01

Well we have been told that the notaire will get the new letter this thursday, but I personally am fuming. If this was in the UK I would be on to the Law Society, but French lawyers seem to get away with it. My real concern now is when we will get the money. Meanwhile its earning interest, but not for us.
Arthur

Marguerite & Steve · Post by **Marguerite & Steve** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 13:27

Arthur, who has got YOUR money, and how can the buyers be allowed to move into YOUR house, as money transactions are exchanged at the same time, also it has taken the Notaire up to now to realise that the paperwork is out of date, doesn't sound right to me Arthur, what does Med & Mountain say about it??????? tell them WHEN you receive YOUR money you want the interest as well.

will ring tonight x

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 14:03

But how is this possible? It's totally outrageous and unacceptable!!

WHO had the power of attorney and WHO has your money?

To be fair, you know about the Law Society because it's a British institution in Britain. Normally, you would never need to know about the same thing in France.

If you are dissatisfied with your notary, you should contact the local chamber of notaries

Que faire si je suis mécontent de mon notaire ?
Avant d’adresser une réclamation à la chambre, essayez d’élucider le problème avec le notaire. S’il reconnaît avoir commis une erreur, il pourrait ouvrir un dossier d’assurance responsabilité civile, en vue de l’examen au fond de votre dossier par l’assureur.
Si le notaire ne répond pas ou si sa réponse ne vous satisfait pas, vous pouvez saisir le Président de la chambre (par courrier) qui a le pouvoir d’obtenir toutes les informations nécessaires sur votre dossier afin de s’assurer de la manière dont il a été traité.
Le Président de la chambre doit vous apporter une réponse. Pour obtenir ses coordonnées, il vous suffit de consulter la liste des chambres des notaires.
Si celle-ci ne vous satisfait pas, il vous sera toujours possible de saisir le Procureur de la République.

http://www.notaires.fr/notaires/page/co ... page_id=61

CHAMBRE DES NOTAIRES DES PYRENEES ORIENTALES
21, boulevard Clémenceau - 66000 PERPIGNAN
Tél. : 04 68 35 14 79 / Fax : 04 68 35 02 15

Marguerite & Steve · Post by **Marguerite & Steve** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 14:15

thumbelina wrote:But how is this possible? It's totally outrageous and unacceptable!!

...absolutely agree with you thumbs.

polremy · Post by **polremy** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 14:22

The fact that you are now back in England just makes it all the more difficult and annoying and frustrating for you
You can't just call in and make a fuss - it's going to take an expensive phonecall - in French probably! - and it's July.
Can anyone on the forum intervene on your behalf?
Maybe we won't sell our house after all.

Arthur and Lyn · Post by **Arthur and Lyn** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 15:11

The notaire has the money. Our immobiliers are MED and MOUNTAIN, and we asked Mark from there to contact the notaire and find out where the money was, that was the first indication he or we had about the out of date letter saying there was no mortgage on the property. He thought we had the money. When we signed the Power of Attorney we asked the Clerk how long it would take for the money and she said it would be paid into our MoneyCorp Account the same day. We are relying on Mark to chase them up and he has said he will this thursday. But Louise from Med and Mountain said prior to this that it is almost impossible to get money from notaires during July and August, that I find hard to believe, so we are keeping our fingers crossed that it will go ahead this thursday, trouble is the notaire told Mark he SHOULD have the new letter by thursday!!!! Also when we bought Nefiach, the guy who sold it to us was a Brit. And he waited from the beginning of October until the following January before he got his money, that said I think he did have some sort of mortgage on it.
SO watch this space we will let you know how well Med and Mountain sort it out.

Arthur

Marguerite & Steve · Post by **Marguerite & Steve** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 15:35

I can't believe what I am reading Arthur, it is DISGUSTING, it does worry you then for when you sell your property, especially if you have bought another house in another country and need your funds..Notaires making a few quid on your money then..

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 15:56

almost impossible to get money from notaires during July and August

This is inaccurate. Notaries do work through July and August. They were pleased enough to undertake the transaction on my purchase on 16 August (which is actually a bank holiday in the PO!)

To recap then. The notary signed the Acte de Vente (with the power of attorney given by you) and then discovers the paperwork isn't correct so he can't release your money to you so he keeps it in his bank account gaining interest until the paperwork is correct.

One of the things you need to get Mark and Louise to ask the notary is who will be picking up the cost of the bridging loan that you had to take out to complete the purchase of your new home in the UK and who will be paying you the interest on YOUR money which is lodged in someone else's bank account.

I do hope that they are doing everything for you that is humanly possible now that they have completed their transaction!!!!

Perhaps you should name and shame the notary as well so we all know who we should avoid in the future!

Please keep us posted!!

john · Post by **john** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 16:57

thumbelina wrote:
almost impossible to get money from notaires during July and August
This is inaccurate. Notaries do work through July and August. They were pleased enough to undertake the transaction on my purchase on 16 August (which is actually a bank holiday in the PO!)

!!

I'd agree with that. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. As an example,I am helping out with some donkey work re a property sale for some extended family in St Cyp. The woman at the Notaires in Perps has been away on hols,but will be back a week today,so I've got an appt with her then (2 Aug) and she expects the money will be sorted a week later.

Marge's point about it being difficult not actually being here is a good one. Much better to be on hand to kick ass if necessary!

Arthur and Lyn · Post by **Arthur and Lyn** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 17:02

I agree John, it is much better to be on hand, but that only really helps if you have sufficient grasp of the language to be able to demand. As neither of us do, we are relying on Mark, who has to do all the arse kicking required.

Arthur

carol sheridan · Post by **carol sheridan** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 20:01

I sold my house in Aude without an agent, through an advert in frenchproperty news, which cost me £92. There was a bit of a hiccough when the buyers were turned down for a mortgage,having been promised one in principle, and I had an axious six weeks waiting for them to get one from another bank. However, once the Acte de Vente was signed, the notaire paid my small mortgage off and put the balance in my French bank account within the week. It had been my sole/principal residence for three years so there was no capital gains tax to pay - perhaps that is why it was so quick.
When I was conveyancing in England, the golden rule was 'No money, no key' - the only time an exception was made was on the morning after the hurricane in 1987, when it was physically impossible for people to move in Kent. All the solicitors in each chain agreed to let the paper transactions take place and for the money to be paid over, even though it was impossible for the houses to be vacated.

Rose · Post by **Rose** » Mon 26 Jul 2010 22:45

Good Luck Arthur and Lyn. It must be frustrating to be in the UK with all this happening and the telephone bills!

Med & Mountain · Post by **Med & Mountain** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 01:43

Hi all.

I just thought I’d clarify a couple of things regarding the unfortunate situation that Arthur and Lyn find themselves in.

We sympathise with them as much as the rest of you as they’ve been let down during the sales process, first by their buyers’ bank and then by the notaire. As Lyn said, the process should have taken a maximum of 3 months and so should have been done and dusted by mid-June. The buyers’ bank sent an official letter on 21st May to say that their mortgage had been approved. Despite repeated promises to the contrary, the bank then took until July to actually release the funds to the notaire. The bank’s excuse was that the uptake on the 100% mortgages that they were offering was so great that they were not able to process them in a timely manner – clearly a totally unacceptable state of affairs.

As a result, Arthur and Lyn needed to leave for the UK before the acte de vente could be signed. We therefore went to the notaire’s office together on 2nd July so that they could sign a power of attorney, to enable the acte to be signed on their behalf as soon as the bank released the funds to the notaire. I had already been given assurances that everything was in place, and as Arthur said, we were told by the notaire’s clerk on that day that their money would be transferred to them via Moneycorp on the day of completion.

The unfortunate reality is that due to the delay caused by the buyers’ bank, the ‘état hypothécaire’ (a document stating whether the vendors have an outstanding mortgage on a property) expired. The notaire overlooked this, and didn’t seek a renewal of the document until later. He therefore now finds himself in a situation where completion has taken place, however he is not legally allowed to transfer the funds to Arthur and Lyn until he receives the renewed document.

For our part, I’m afraid there’s only so much that we can do to ensure that the notaire does his job properly. We are not privy to all the documents sought by the notaire, and if we are assured that he has everything that he needs to complete a sale and transfer the funds, then we have to accept that.

I’ll continue to chase the notaire on Arthur and Lyn’s behalf to try to resolve the matter as quickly as possible. If they want me to write a letter of complaint to the notaire on their behalf, then I’m perfectly happy to do that as well.

Mark Sayers

mand · Post by **mand** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 08:22

Our house move was a nightmare too, we sold our old house fairly easily we were in the middle of completing on purchasing another house when we found the french taxman had blocked our funds because we had to pay capital gains on the house sale (not being our main home) and they were afraid that if they had made an error in calculating how much CG we had to pay that we might not pay the difference living in the UK, this was ridiculous we told them we were completing on another property but they still wouldn't let us have the proceeds from the sale, We had to have someone who lives and works in France to go as guarantor for us before they would release the money.

but even then the nightmare didn't end the day we were supposed to complete on and move into our new house we found that the vendors son who inherited 25% of the property had been declared bankrupt and now his administrator had halted the completion and wanted the house revalued etc then tried pushing for it to go to auction etc, so we didn't know if we were going to lose our house or what, the mother who still owned 75% had to go to court to fight for this sale to be completed we finally got the property almost 3 months after we were supposed to complete.

I really sympathise with this couple.

sue and paul · Post by **sue and paul** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 08:45

Thinking of you both, Lyn and Arthur, and very much hope you get your money soon. You've been more than patient, both in waiting for a buyer, and waiting for the sale to trundle through. You now deserve closure.

Pichicuy · Post by **Pichicuy** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 09:00

It is Louise from Med and Mountain here and I would like to make the point that I have been misquoted here. I never said that "it is almost impossible to get money from notaires during July and August", I actually said that it is very difficult to get notaires to act during this period and I stand by that. Much of my work on the Help in France side of our business involves dealing with notaires and time and again my phone calls and emails are ignored. This is not just in July and August but it is worse in the summer months as often notaires and clerks are on holiday and no-one covers for them during that time.

Mark is doing all he can to get this sorted. In fact, as Lyn and Arthur know, Mark visited the notaire with them ahead of the signing of the acte de vente to ensure that everything was in place to transfer the money as quickly as possible. He could not have done any more. He cannot be held to blame for the notaire's error in not noticing that an essential document had expired and needed to be renewed before the funds could be released. Incidentally, these funds are held in the notaire's account but do not accrue interest.

Mark will no doubt want to reply himself but I would like to say that if Lyn and Arthur wish to write a letter of complaint to the notaire, I would be happy to translate this into French at no charge. I absolutely agree that the level of service from notaires in general is totally unacceptable but until individuals start to make their feelings known, nothing will change.

Marguerite & Steve · Post by **Marguerite & Steve** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 09:27

I appreciate what everyone is saying, I only hope that Lyn & Arthur get the interest that THEIR money has generated while all this is going on. Maybe it is a learning curve for all Estate agents to check and double check that all paperwork is still valid after a certain time to ensure their sale goes through smoothly, and not just rely on the Notaire. I would get Louise to sent a letter of complaint on your behalf to the Notaire as their actions are not acceptable.

Like Sue says, you both have been so patient and really don't deserve this unnecessary stress, hope it is all resolved very soon.x

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 09:39

Fair play to both Mark AND Louise in coming forward and putting their point of view across (shame you had to expose your identity though pichicuy!! lol).

I'm sorry, Marg, but it really is not the place of an estate agent to query that the notary has the up to date paperwork - that is the job that the notary is paid to do - and required to do by law. And which he did not. Clearly as the money is in the bank account of the notary, he should be responsible for reimbursing any interest to A&L. (Unfortunately, even if he had a million euros in his bank account belonging to A&L, the interest would be a derisory sum anyway, nowadays)

Clearly, from Louise's last statement A&L need to take the complaint further as this is not an isolated incident.

We can only hope, for them, that there is a speedy resolution to the problem.

Marguerite & Steve · Post by **Marguerite & Steve** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 09:55

I feel that the agent is responsible for the free flow of a sale, they are charging you for their services, at the end of the day they charge a lot of money. I am sure their responsibilities must go further than just getting you a sale.

yes fair play to Med & Mountain for coming forward and stating where they stand in this fiasco.

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 10:03

I don't know.

For one thing, I believe it is the purchaser who pays the agent, not the seller. And yes, estate agents receive ridiculously large fees, but Mark and Louise, as agents for an agent do NOT receive these. Secondly, the notary gets paid an equally ridiculous fee to do HIS job properly.

It seems to me, as with all things in life, everyone has their own job to do. You can do your job properly, but if your colleague, or the next person in the chain doesn't do theirs properly, then the whole procedure (irrespective of what is actually is) will fall like a house of cards.

Supposing the supplier to your daughter's florist doesn't deliver the yellow lilies that she has ordered for her wedding bouquet. Normally, the flowers would be delivered to your florist the day before. So the day before the wedding the florist doesn't have the flowers that you ordered. It's not her fault, but that of the supplier. She will do what she can to put the situation right for your daughter, as Mark and Louise seem to be trying to do for A&L, but someone within the chain, failed to do their job properly, causing untold stress and worry for everyone.

The whole thing seems to be a sad, sorry mess with one person at fault - the notary.

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 10:52

Arthur...How much money is the Notaire holding? I think you mentioned that the buyers were getting 100 % mortgage. As the mortgage offer appears to have expired I would be v ery surprised if he has received the mortgage advance from the lender. Once the offer has been received he would be able to apply for the advance. I assume he can therefore only have the balance of purchase mnoies..ie notaires fees stamp duty and agents costs etc...it may be worth checking....are the buyers living in the property?...if so on what basis...are they paying rent or a licence payment to occupy..give me a call if you wish or email your landline number so I can call you if you wish

Pichicuy · Post by **Pichicuy** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 11:13

It seems to me that a personal situation has been put into the private domain here and while everyone is trying to be helpful to Lyn and Arthur, there are some incorrect facts being bandied about which is not helpful at all.

I believe that Lyn and Arthur have spoken to Mark and understand the situation but if they need any clarifications they know they are welcome to call him directly to discuss this.

john · Post by **john** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 11:30

It's a" belt and braces "thing surely? I'd agree with Thumbs that it's the responsibility of the notaire to ensure all the stuff at his end is correct and in place,but I agree with Margs that the job of the Agent is to check that EVERYONE has done their job properly to allow the sale(for which they will be paid handsomely) to go through smoothly. This has clearly not happened in this case,so the Agent has to take a good deal of the flak.

Though,as others have said,fair play to them for coming on here to put their side of the tale.

Thumbs,you are incorrect about fees. It is the SELLER who pays the agent,though they may,if they can get away with it, load this onto the price of the house,so,in practice it's the buyer who shells out.

John & Elaine · Post by **John & Elaine** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 11:35

Our feelings go out to Arthur and Lyn but let's not forget to welcome (I assume) Mark and Louise to the forum. What kept you so long?!!!

John & Elaine

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Tue 27 Jul 2010 11:36

hear hear John and Elaine.

Though I spot that pichicuy has been posting for some time!

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Selling your house !!

Selling your house !!