Pool problems

[russell]

Any swimming pool experts out there.

Our pool was installed 6 years ago and the water has always been sparklingly clear. This spring we had some algae and as the disolved solids were getting high as well I drained the pool, cleaned it, and refilled from the forage. A dose of clore choc and all was well.

However the water has become slightly milky so that the bottom (1.9m) is only just visible. I am using the recommended dose of "gallets 5-action" and filtering for several hours a night but it will not clear.

The Ph is correct (I have to add alkali about once a month to stop it becoming acid) and the chlorine level is, if anything, slightly high.

Any ideas?

Russell.

[thumbelina]

I had the same problem - the pool was a bugger to get clear this year.

I bought a product from Leroy Merlin and it's been fine since. I kept the chlorine levels high for a couple of weeks, and every so often actually did a tour with some chlore choc granules.

I'll go down to the pool in a bit to find the name of the product.

[Kathy]

Have you used flocculant?
Here is some more info.

One of the problems with sand filters is that they are unable to trap dirt or foreign matter below 0.02 mm (20 microns). Cloudy water is probably a result of these minute particles of matter if the total alkalinity, pH, calcium hardness and TDS are all within the recommended limits.

Flocculation (or coagulation) is the process of adding chemicals which bind or stick these tiny particles together, resulting in larger clumps which settle to the bottom of the pool and leave the water clear. These "clumps" can be easily removed by vacuuming the floor of the pool.

Chlorination or chlorine shock treatment may also clear the water, but this is both expensive and upsets the water balance.

[john]

Kathy is right,Russell. Depending on how cloudy it is is a dose of floculant put directly into the skimmers should do the trick. Remember to turn the filtration system off for 24 hrs while it does its magic. Then clear all the sediment off the bottom with robot or similar.

[mpprh]

Are you filtering long enough ?

As the temperatures rise, pools need the hours of filtration to be increased.

Rule of thumb is :

Temp (in °C) - 15 = daily hours of filtration needed

So, with pools being 30C -32C at present, around 16 hrs of filtration would be needed.

The other important factor is to use the pool so that the dust and cloudiness goes through the filter.

Peter

[polremy]

Are you filtering long enough ?

As the temperatures rise, pools need the hours of filtration to be increased.

Rule of thumb is :

Temp (in °C) - 15 = daily hours of filtration needed

So, with pools being 30C -32C at present, around 16 hrs of filtration would be needed.

The other important factor is to use the pool so that the dust and cloudiness goes through the filter.

Peter

You beat me to it.
We almost decided to empty our pool and refill it for a second time this year cos it was stubbornly not quite clear for ages.

However, in the end, we were patient and left the motor running 24 hours a day for at least a week and were eventually rewarded with a beautiful clear pool.

[john]

I guess what PR and Peter are saying is true re filtering time,but I took Russell's request to be of a "need a quick fix" nature,and there is no doubt that floculant does solve this problem almost overnight.

[thumbelina]

The product is called Rattrapage Eaux Verts and it's for water that is troubled or green.

You need to leave the pump running permanently and you can't swim for a while either.

I found it to be pretty effective. The balance of the water didn't seem to be affected as the ph stayed about where it should be.

[Colin L]

A bit anti-social this floculance, don't you think?

[russell]

Thanks all - some ideas to try.

Russell.

[TOM AND BARB]

Hi

Making a fleeting visit for a few days to sort out my pool in readiness for another visit in mid August.

Was hoping to get the green water clean within 6 days and then dose it up and leave the pump on for 12 hours a day until I return a few weeks later.
hopefully my neighbours will top up the chlorine every few days until I return.

Does anyone know of a quick way to get it clear ?

Does concentrated liquid bleach ( like domestos ) work quicker or must I stick to chloc choc blocks ?
Does Chloc choc granules work quicker than blocks ?

Can anyone give me advice on how to do it as quickly as possible.

My pool is a traditinal in ground pool 8m L x 3.5m W x1.5m D with standard filter pump system.

Thanks

Thanks

[john]

If the water is green,then you'll need a good dose of the "anti algues" liquid,Tom. This can be applied directly into the pool or via the skimmers. If it's cloudy as well then use floculants as above.

The 5 in one treatments seem OK to me if you are using it prophylactically,but to deal with a specific problem urgently,you are best using specialist chemicals imho.

With usage as outlined above,getting the chlorine/ph right and long-time filtering ,you should EASILY get this sorted in 6 days.

[mpprh]

Just a few things I've learned from personal suffering :

This applies to pools using CL and having normal sandwashed filters ...

* Providing the PH is correct, the "4/5 in one" galettes + adequate filtration will keep the pool water clear and sparkling

* Adequate filtration includes backwashing the filter and filtering for the correct time = ( Deg C - 15) hrs

* The "4/5 in one" galettes have a long term action releasing Cl slowly

* Chlor Choc is for rapid release of CL (you can see the bubbles and the Cl escapes from the water over 48hrs or so)

* Once a pool goes green, recovery is hard and long

* The green colour (can also be brown yellow or black) is caused by growth of single celled algae

* With time, the cells group together forming a slimy soup

* If your pool goes green, you need a high level of CL (or other product - anti-algues, CuS04, etc) to kill the Algae

* This normally is achieved quickly and Phase 2 is to hoover up the dead algae cells which are usually white.

* Vacuuming into the filter will require multiple backwashings to maintain good suction. Better to add water up to the top of the skimmers, then hoover the worst out to waste

* This will require much vacuuming and backwashing over several days, and leaving the filter on 24hrs/day when not vacuuming

* Eventually you will have a very fine residue that passes through the filter (also applies to the yellow sand that arrives with Southerly winds and rain)

* Floculant (can be blocks or liquid) causes the tiny specks of dust to stick together. Best solution is to pump the "floculated" clumps of dust to waste.

* Floculant has heavy metal salts which should be kept to a minimum (eventually they neutralise the effect of the CL)

* Dirty pools use more Cl - keep the bottom, skimmers and filter clean

Once set up, a pool needs vacuuming twice a week. The good news is that the filtration process creates currents that always drop the dirt in the same place. Routine hoovering is quick and use of the pool allows long intervals between intense cleaning sessions when the whole of the bottom needs vacuuming.

Usage of galettes depends on temperature & hrs of filtration.

If you are not regularly there, it is worth investing in an automated PH & CL system.

Good enough to drink :



Less so :



Peter

[TOM AND BARB]

Hello John,

Thanks for the reply.

Have looked on another forum also and there is a reference to JAVEL which apparently is available at Bricos.Is JAVEL another name for bleach ?
Is anti algae - JAVEL ?

At this point the reference seemed to go into Degree level chemistry about free chlorines and Cyanuric acid etc ???
Apparently JAVEL is better for shock treatment as it allows more free chlorine to act quicker ?????

Can anyone cut through the chemistry lingo and tell me the basics

Many Thanks

[TOM AND BARB]

Hello Peter,
Just read your posting after replying to Johns posting

That is quite extensive. Thank you . Any thoughts on the JAVEL ?

Thanks
T&B

[thumbelina]

Javel is normal household bleach, Tom. The product I mentioned earlier, boosts the chlorine action.

[TOM AND BARB]

Thanks

Thought that may be the case hence my reference to "domestos" earlier in the thread.
Would you happen to know if there are different strengths available from different outlets.
ie : is the Javel in a supermarket the same strength as the ones refered to available from the Bricos ?

Sorry for having to ask what seem to be stupid questions but I will be on limited time to get it sorted and it would be a big help to have done the research before my visit so that i can get started immediately without having to waste time travelling around to look for stuff.

Thanks again

T&B

[thumbelina]

It's not a problem! That's what the forum is for.

I'm afraid I can't answer your question, you'll have to wait for Peter or someone else to come online who knows more about this than I do.

Good luck!

[blackduff]

I'm not sure which variation of the bleach in France but in Spain the differences can be seen in the colour of the bottles.

I'm sure if you look on the Castorama's web site, you might see the variations of the bleaches.

Blackduff

[Kathy]

I know you need the 9.6% Javel strength for pools and it has been said that if it is more than 3 months old from manufacture it begins to lose its strength. I can look in the both supermarket ( I suspect that will be the 2% sort) and Brico in Le Boulou for you but it will be next week before I can do this and get hubby to report back due to lack of inernet whilst out in France. I know what it is like to not have the time to do the legwork, this frequently happens to us and we have had many fruitless hours.
It depends how bad your pool is as to what to use but you do have a reasonable amount of time.

[mpprh]

My pool has never been green, and I've always used chlor choc for others.

There are various forms of bleach, but I think the one commonly available is sodium hypochlorite which releases Cl2 gas, water, and common salt at lower (acidic) ph levels.

I passed my A level chemistry in 1970, so I may be wrong.

It is cheap and it produces CL gas (same as chlor choc). Bleach is pretty weak and, from memory, it breaks down if it is too concentrated.



Peter

[Kathy]

There are various forms of bleach, but I think the one commonly available is sodium hypochlorite which releases Cl2 gas, water, and common salt at lower (acidic) ph levels.
Peter

Yes it is my understanding too that the sodium one is the most common one. The other one calcium hypochlorite is supposed to be better and cause less upset to the water chemistry but can lead to scaling if you are in a hard water area.
Personally I would try the chlor choc granules first.

[john]

Tom,like Thumbers I have no qualifications in Chemistry (not even an O level) so I really have no idea what is in the Anti Algues or any other pool product.

But you can only speak as you find,and on the rare occasions that my pool (bog standard 10x5 job) has taken on an emerald hue,I've always found that a goodly addition of said Anti Algues product clears it in 24 to 48 hrs. Recovery is not,as some would claim, "hard and long". Where people are right is in checking the cleanliness etc of the filter. I backwash and rinse mine for approx 5 mins twice a week on average,and it seems to work.

I've never felt the need to put Domestos or any other household bleach product in my pool,but honestly,if using the right pool chemicals could not see any need to.

[Allan]

Any swimming pool experts out there.

This spring we had some algae and as the disolved solids were getting high as well I drained the pool, cleaned it, and refilled from the forage. A dose of clore choc and all was well.

This discussion started with Russell wanting to know how to get rid of cloudiness in his pool and John was absolutely spot on with his advice to use a floculent. You should however 'shock' the pool regularly during the summer months ( once a fortnight is good ). Chlore choc is a chemical that rapidly releases chlorine which then dissipates from the surface of the pool. In the process it kills most biological matter and purifies the water. Combined with a floculant this should give you clear water.

Algae are particularly persistent organisms normally blown in by the wind and will normally only multiply if the water balance is wrong. Chlore choc will go a long way to killing them but they actually create a chlorine demand of their own. Most anti algae products deprive them of carbon dioxide which they need and help the chlore choc do its job.

As John says it is not difficult to clear a murky pool. Chlore choc is great because it works and then vaporises. If your pool is very murky check the pressure in the filter regularly, if it gets too high backwash the filter for a few minutes.

[mpprh]

A strange world.

My pool has not been emptied since it was new in 1995 ish, although filter cleaning and cleaning to waste probably replaces the water at least annually.

I've got a half full tub of chlor choc that I inherited and I've only used it once in the last 10 years. I don't use hivernage. I filter for 1hr at 03.30 every winter morning and at winter temperatures the "4/5 in one" galettes last about 6 weeks.

In addition to regular cleaning, ph checking, etc I think the pool material is important. Concrete, grout and tiles release alkalis in the water which require the addition of ph - or acid - to balance the water acidity. Liners and fibre glass shells are neutral and the water needs less chemicals.

I use as few chemicals as possible.


Peter

[TOM AND BARB]

Hello Peter ,

Thanks for the reply.

I think the main difference is regular care of the water.
To do this you must be resident or a very very regular visitor.

For those of us who are not resident it becomes a real battle keeping the water clean as the water can change so quickly when its temperature rises.

I do not visit frequently enough or stay long enough ( YET !!!) to keep on top of it.

I have come to the conclusion that I either have to deal with it myself or pay someone local to keep regular checks on it.

The pool is a godsend in the summer as it keeps the kids happy and happy kids = happy parents but if I had to devide the number of swims I personally have had in it by the cost of repair,maintenance and and upkeep it would be damned expensive.---such is life.

Anyway ---look out algae ---here I come !!!---stick um up !!!!

[TOM AND BARB]

Hi Peter-(again)

Can you please explain "cleaning to waste."

I know how to Backwash/Rinse through my main filter but not sure where the valve settings need to be to clean to waste.

Does this mean hoovering and the water byepassing the filter ?

Does this not use huge amounts of water ? I normally take about 30mins to hoover, more if its really dirty.

Perhaps you would be good enough to explain.
Thanks

[john]

Hello Peter ,

Thanks for the reply.

I think the main difference is regular care of the water.
To do this you must be resident or a very very regular visitor.

For those of us who are not resident it becomes a real battle keeping the water clean as the water can change so quickly when its temperature rises.

I do not visit frequently enough or stay long enough ( YET !!!) to keep on top of it.

I have come to the conclusion that I either have to deal with it myself or pay someone local to keep regular checks on it.

The pool is a godsend in the summer as it keeps the kids happy and happy kids = happy parents but if I had to devide the number of swims I personally have had in it by the cost of repair,maintenance and and upkeep it would be damned expensive.---such is life.

Anyway ---look out algae ---here I come !!!---stick um up !!!!

You are clearly having the same problems as we had before we moved here Tom. Whilst ,in an ideal world,it'd be nice to do without treatment/chemicals,as you say if you live away,it's simply not possible. Nothing "strange" about that.

Your second point is a fair one. My view is that if we had our time again we would not have bothered with a pool. For the number of days that you can use it round here,as you say ,they work out damned expensive swims,and the amount of work involved is not commensurate with the pleasure gained. I think pools have this "street cred" caché about them,but,if and when we move,we'll certainly not be buying a house with a pool!

[thumbelina]

I think pools have this "street cred" caché about them,but,if and when we move,we'll certainly not be buying a house with a pool!

I'm not sure. Personally, I don't know anyone who gives a stuff if someone has a pool or not. I think this may be more the case in England or in some of the more snobby areas but not around here (unless that's the way it is amongst the expat community of course?).

Where we live, it takes about three quarters of an hour to an hour to get to the beach at this time of year, so for us a pool is a necessity. And a pleasure. And not a chore - just a bit of hard work.

I'm not sure about the cost. I have no idea how much it costs me in electricity. Water costs me nothing and chemicals aren't that extortianate as I put as little as possible to keep the water within the tolerances.

(I lived in Ceret without a pool for four years and, during the summer, it was HORRENDOUS! The only way to cool down was to take a shower. And that was in water that was so chlorinated it was as if you were taking a swim anyway lol . I can't do without my pool)

[mpprh]

Can you please explain "cleaning to waste."

Normally, I vacuum the pool with the water passing through the filter. When the filter pressure starts to build up, I backwash the filter, rinse, then return to filtration.

When there is either fine yellow sand (that is too fine for the filter), or a heavy build up of dirt (caused by floculant or wind) vacuuming through the filter is not a good choice. The fine sand passes through the filter and the heavy dirt rapidly blocks the filter requiring frequent backwashing.

Vacuuming to waste (valve set to waste ) allows the waste dust and dirt to bypass the filter and go immediately to waste. Obviously it uses more water (which can be expensive ) and is best done rarely and as quickly as possible.

I've got more notes here : http://the-languedoc-page.com/property/pools.htm

BTW I think you are correct about the pool maintenance problem. If you are on site it needs attention "little but often". Leaving it to pool virgins can cause problems !

Peter