Smoking out the Brexout Mistruths and lack of Substance

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Thu 19 May 2016 09:13

the appeal court ruling on the +15 year exclusion rule case brought by Harry Schindler, is due on Friday 10.00
if we win it could upset the applecart and be a great help to the cause.

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Thu 19 May 2016 14:09

Gus Morris wrote:I had no idea my few comments would generate such a reaction.

I put forward a few simple precepts. The response from Graham C was an absolute deluge! Must have taken hours to put it together.

If the EU is undemocratic how about Westminster? The Upper House has eight hundred members none of whom are elected. Ninety two of them are hereditary peers whose only qualification is the accident of birth. They all have tenure for life. It's almost impossible to get rid of them.

There are twenty six C of E clergy too. So much for the separation of church and state which is the cornerstone of most functioning democracies!

After the Napoleonic wars the British establishment was concerned that the ordinary man in the street might imbibe revolutionary ideas. The Chartist movement in mid-century saw these fears realised and the leaders were transported to the Australian penal colonies. Yet five of the six central demands were eventually enacted into law! Some sections of British society have a history of resisting change on the basis that what was good yesterday will be fine for tomorrow. History shows that this is not always the case.

Gus

That's probably all good, but the interesting thing is that the Brexiters are absolutely intent on change. But without having any coherent idea of where they want to fetch up instead (the Norwegian model? Apparently not so good, even according to the Norwegians. The Albanian model? Apparently not so good, even according to the Albanians. The Canadian model might be fine, if we happened to live in Canada). Where they seem to want to land up is in a romanticised version of the 50s when the maps of the world were all pink. But I doubt that that's on offer. And it wasn't a huge success the first time around.

I don't imagine that GrahamC's stuff did take hours to put together. I guess that he can cut and paste as well as the next person. The surprising thing is the conviction that we will all faint from shock once he trots it out.

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Thu 19 May 2016 17:00

in fact i think they are even further back... the 1930's league of nations, The Empire and all that....springs to mind.

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Thu 19 May 2016 19:22

montgolfiere wrote:in fact i think they are even further back... the 1930's league of nations, The Empire and all that....springs to mind.

What do you mean "even" further back? Some of us remember the 50s. And are still young enough not to have done National Service, praise be.

Gus Morris · Post by **Gus Morris** » Fri 20 May 2016 07:49

Brexiters are absolutely intent on change. But without having any coherent idea of where they want to fetch up.

True. But there is always the possibilty that some among them are stooges. There are those beyond our shores who see it in their interests to weaken, even destroy, the EU. Remember those highly intelligent products of our finest universities who were willing to betray their country to the Soviet Union because they swallowed all the propaganda. Or the British puppets who plunged the UK into the second Iraq war for very questionable reasons.

Your real opponents are not always the people shouting the odds.

Gus

Lanark Lass · Post by **Lanark Lass** » Fri 20 May 2016 12:18

The appeal has been lost. News just in on BBC home page.

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Fri 20 May 2016 12:23

Gus Morris wrote:Brexiters are absolutely intent on change. But without having any coherent idea of where they want to fetch up.

True. But there is always the possibilty that some among them are stooges. There are those beyond our shores who see it in their interests to weaken, even destroy, the EU. Remember those highly intelligent products of our finest universities who were willing to betray their country to the Soviet Union because they swallowed all the propoganda. Or the British puppets who plunged the UK into the second Iraq war for very questionable reasons.

Your real opponents are not always the people shouting the odds.

Gus

I have always thought the cock-up theory of history is more plausible than the conspiratorial version. The Soviet recruiters must have been extraordinarily astute, or else completely barmy, to have signed up this particular crew. It is easier, and usually more accurate, to assume that people just don't agree with you, and that you are insufficiency empathetic to work out exactly why.

The problem is not that Brexiters are not patriotic: it's that they are patriots on steroids.

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Fri 20 May 2016 12:40

Lanark Lass wrote:The appeal has been lost. News just in on BBC home page.

Yes. A pity, though not surprising, that they can't get the judgment on their website once delivered. But a fairly predictable outcome.

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Fri 20 May 2016 13:51

It is going to the Supreme Court.

GrahamC · Post by **GrahamC** » Fri 20 May 2016 18:13

Just logged in to see if this thread has got any better. No such luck. Not one single counter argument based on fact. Just the ususal responders who seem to confuse sneering condescension and personal opinion for rational argument. Or worse still those who dismiss the analysis of very highly respected economists and others just because they happen also to write columns in the Telegraph.

I've said my bit, presented my arguments which, Martyn, took a great deal of time to research and assemble because I actually care about the facts.

Its clear that both sides have deeply entrenched views and there is nothing further to be gained by trying to make this an argument based on the facts.

Ultimately I'm not even sure that the Brexit vote is relevant. There are many reasons to believe that the EU in its present form will blow itself to bits before long. The southern states will only tolerate German hegemony for so long before everything goes tits up. 50% youth unemployment just to support German banks and German industry is a con that is ultimately unsustainable.

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Fri 20 May 2016 20:00

GrahamC wrote:Just logged in to see if this thread has got any better. No such luck. Not one single counter argument based on fact. Just the ususal responders who seem to confuse sneering condescension and personal opinion for rational argument. Or worse still those who dismiss the analysis of very highly respected economists and others just because they happen also to write columns in the Telegraph.

I've said my bit, presented my arguments which, Martyn, took a great deal of time to research and assemble because I actually care about the facts.

Its clear that both sides have deeply entrenched views and there is nothing further to be gained by trying to make this an argument based on the facts.

Ultimately I'm not even sure that the Brexit vote is relevant. There are many reasons to believe that the EU in its present form will blow itself to bits before long. The southern states will only tolerate German hegemony for so long before everything goes tits up. 50% youth unemployment just to support German banks and German industry is a con that yay is ultimately unsustainable.

You might think we know the "facts" about our current presence in the EU, but evidently we don't have any consensus about them. We cannot possibly know the "facts" about our future outside the EU, because we have not been there yet. As you'd expect, we will make this decision by licking our finger, and holding it in the breeze.

As for the rest, "highly-respected" commentators who write for the Telegraph tend to be highly respected by those who read the Telegraph. And similarly for those who write for the Guardian. For myself, I'll make my own mind up. I don't find authorities, on either side, any more authoritative than these elusive "facts". If the facts were there for inspection, we would never have had this expensive charade.

The possibility that it might destroy the Tory party is only a very small consolation.

Gus Morris · Post by **Gus Morris** » Sat 21 May 2016 07:30

GrahamC wrote

Just the usual responders who seem to confuse sneering condescension and personal opinion for rational argument.

I take exception to this statement. If having a vision of a stable, prosperous and peaceful Europe is not rational then please tell me what is.

What we are attempting in Europe is unique. A union of sovereign states acting together for the common good, Not an easy task and one for which there is no real precedent.. The fact that the road is paved with obstacles does not mean that the journey not worth attempting.

I want to move forward with my fellow Europeans towards a better future. There are those who would risk plunging us into a repeat of the chaos that was our past. Oddly enough your arguments have strengthened my resolve. The blood of several different European nations runs in my veins. My fellow Europeans are my kinsfolk. Not the enemy without.

Gus Morris

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Sat 21 May 2016 12:23

martyn94 wrote:
Lanark Lass wrote:The appeal has been lost. News just in on BBC home page.
Yes. A pity, though not surprising, that they can't get the judgment on their website once delivered. But a fairly predictable outcome.

The judgment is now up, here

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content ... dler-2.pdf

if you are masochistic enough to read it. The plaintiffs lost, in most respects, rather more completely than they did in the court below.

One of the incidental facts in the judgment is the dismal proportion of Brits resident elsewhere in the EU who actually bother to register for a UK vote. No doubt this will have ticked up a bit recently, but if you haven't, time is running out.

Lanark Lass · Post by **Lanark Lass** » Sat 21 May 2016 13:48

Support for these people is notable by its absence from people with a vested interest in the Brexit vote e.g. government leaders?

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Sat 21 May 2016 13:58

not much point me registering to vote as i cant!!! a ridiculous argument from the Learned Judges... and is irrelevant to the case.

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Sat 21 May 2016 15:43

Lanark Lass wrote:Support for these people is notable by its absence from people with a vested interest in the Brexit vote e.g. government leaders?

What is this meant to say, in English? I say this thinking that I am probably on the same side as you. The next few weeks are going to be very hard sledding.

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Wed 25 May 2016 12:53

Latest reports and polling thankfully says the Vote is moving towards Stay....especially with the Tory Voters... they have moved 5% And the ££££ has climbed 2 euro cents in 24 hours... Hopefully people are now seeing through the Fog created by the Brexouters...

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Wed 25 May 2016 13:54

montgolfiere wrote:Latest reports and polling thankfully says the Vote is moving towards Stay....especially with the Tory Voters... they have moved 5% And the ££££ has climbed 2 euro cents in 24 hours... Hopefully people are now seeing through the Fog created by the Brexouters...

I do wish people wouldn't say things like this. Register to vote, and vote, if you can. Cross your fingers if you can't. But don't exult before the fat lady has sung.

It's not that I'm superstitious, or anything like that.

Lanark Lass · Post by **Lanark Lass** » Wed 25 May 2016 20:56

Martyn94, what I meant was I thought D Cameron & Co would pull out all the stops to get the expats votes if he is serious about wanting to stay in Europe.
But apparently Westminster discussed whether or not to allow the "over 15 years" ex pats before announcing the referendum date. So.... does he really care whether there is a Brexit or not?The majority would probably vote to stay in.

Both he and Boris are rich enough for it not to matter which way the vote goes. Boris is only interested in being the next P.M/ in any case.

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Wed 25 May 2016 22:18

Lanark Lass wrote:Martyn94, what I meant was I thought D Cameron & Co would pull out all the stops to get the expats votes if he is serious about wanting to stay in Europe.
But apparently Westminster discussed whether or not to allow the "over 15 years" ex pats before announcing the referendum date. So.... does he really care whether there is a Brexit or not?The majority would probably vote to stay in.

Both he and Boris are rich enough for it not to matter which way the vote goes. Boris is only interested in being the next P.M/ in any case.

According to the Ct of Appeal judgment in the Shindler case (here https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content ... dler-2.pdf), about 27,000 of us EU residents have actually bothered to sign up for UK votes, out of maybe a couple of million who might be eligible. The idea that we might matter in the least to the cabal of Old Etonian plutocrats who you think rule us (probably correctly) is just fantasy. And we have no-one to blame for that but ourselves.

Gus Morris · Post by **Gus Morris** » Wed 25 May 2016 23:34

Moved!

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Smoking out the Brexout Mistruths and lack of Substance