Smoking out the Brexout Mistruths and lack of Substance

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montgolfiere
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Smoking out the Brexout Mistruths and lack of Substance

Post by montgolfiere »

I have noticed that the Brexouters have no rational arguments for their Cause. They only seem to attack the Stayers with, 'you are scaremongering' or it was paid for by the Taxpayer, blah blah blah. They have no facts or arguments as to how it will be beneficial to leave the EU. I ask everyone to call them out whenever and wherever they try these tactics. We are the expats on these forums who will be most affected by this. Dont be put off by their attacks....It is required to react NOW....else we could all be the losers...
The Uk Government is duty bound to do the best for the UK, They should be investing every tool to ensure a Remain. Brexouters are zenophobic and generally misinformed.
I tell it like it is, so should we all.
VOTE Stay... I cant (vote) so am relying on you all.
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Post by neil mitchell »

I don't think it will make any difference whether we stay or leave. I can vote but I'm not going to because you can only vote to stay or leave. There should be a third box "Don't bloody well care".
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Post by martyn94 »

[quote="neil mitchell""Don't bloody well care".[/quote]

You could get it tattooed across your forehead. Then we would all know where we stand.
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Post by Santiago »

I probably wouldn't go as far as that but yes, many of the claims being made by the Leave campaigners are either misrepresentations or wild accusations. Take the cost of membership or the immigration figures for example.

That mentality is echoed in the members of the public who are seen on Question Time or being interviewed. They have a strong "gut feeling" to vote to leave the EU often based on their personal perspective or experience, which tend to be pretty limited.

It would be a shame if the undecided voters are swayed by someone's anecdote about Brussels forcing some law that meant their relative didn't get a hip replacement or another's story about Romanians taking over some East Anglian village.

It seems to be boiling down to a vote about being rational or emotional.
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montgolfiere
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Post by montgolfiere »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/news/h ... n=DM112194


maybe we will bget a say after all.. the 1 million or so long term expats votes to stay could make all the dfference.
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Re: Smoking out the Brexout Mistruths and lack of Substance

Post by GrahamC »

montgolfiere wrote:I have noticed that the Brexouters have no rational arguments for their Cause. They only seem to attack the Stayers with, 'you are scaremongering' or it was paid for by the Taxpayer, blah blah blah. They have no facts or arguments as to how it will be beneficial to leave the EU. I ask everyone to call them out whenever and wherever they try these tactics. We are the expats on these forums who will be most affected by this. Dont be put off by their attacks....It is required to react NOW....else we could all be the losers...
The Uk Government is duty bound to do the best for the UK, They should be investing every tool to ensure a Remain. Brexouters are zenophobic and generally misinformed.
I tell it like it is, so should we all.
VOTE Stay... I cant (vote) so am relying on you all.
Wow Montgolfiere you are a real piece of work aren't you. You started a different thread ranting on about brexit and basically saying that anyone who doesn't agree with your narrow world view is a looney. In response I provided you with a long list of really important facts that everyone should consider. And this is your response. To start a new thread and claim that we Brexiters have no rational arguments. Call me out anytime I'm proud of the fact that I can use my brain. You should try it some time - it can be quite refreshing.
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Post by GrahamC »

Santiago wrote:I probably wouldn't go as far as that but yes, many of the claims being made by the Leave campaigners are either misrepresentations or wild accusations. Take the cost of membership or the immigration figures for example.

That mentality is echoed in the members of the public who are seen on Question Time or being interviewed. They have a strong "gut feeling" to vote to leave the EU often based on their personal perspective or experience, which tend to be pretty limited.

It would be a shame if the undecided voters are swayed by someone's anecdote about Brussels forcing some law that meant their relative didn't get a hip replacement or another's story about Romanians taking over some East Anglian village.

It seems to be boiling down to a vote about being rational or emotional.
You just don't get it do you? It's got nothing at all to do with the economics. It's got everything to do with stopping a proto-totalitarian state from developing further.

I got this same total crap about being a little englander blah blah blah when I argued against the Euro 10 years ago. Now look at it.

Present rational argumemts but don't slag off people you don't know. It's rude, it's clumsy and it's incredibly arrogant.
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Post by martyn94 »

[/quote]

You just don't get it do you? It's got nothing at all to do with the economics. It's got everything to do with stopping a proto-totalitarian state from developing further.

I got this same total crap about being a little englander blah blah blah when I argued against the Euro 10 years ago. Now look at it.

Present rational argumemts but don't slag off people you don't know. It's rude, it's clumsy and it's incredibly arrogant.[/quote]

So exactly how far, and exactly how, has this proto-totalitarian state developed towards a more fully totalitarian state over the last 10 years?

You say "Now look at it". When I do, I see very much the same imperfect and compromised, but ultimately benign, set-up as I have always seen. The word "totalitarian" has a meaning, and a serious one: many millions of people died in attempts to realise it, not long before I was born. It's not just a "Sun" slogan about bananas which are too crooked, or too straight. And of course the word "state" also has a meaning.
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Post by GrahamC »

martyn94 wrote:
So exactly how far, and exactly how, has this proto-totalitarian state developed towards a more fully totalitarian state over the last 10 years?

You say "Now look at it". When I do, I see very much the same imperfect and compromised, but ultimately benign, set-up as I have always seen. The word "totalitarian" has a meaning, and a serious one: many millions of people died in attempts to realise it, not long before I was born. It's not just a "Sun" slogan about bananas which are too crooked, or too straight. And of course the word "state" also has a meaning.[/quote]

I was referring to the state of the Euro not the EU when I said now look at it. But to answer your question just read my list of points on Montgolfiere's other brexit rant.

Here's the executive summary:

The EU was constitutionally bound not to adopt the European Constitution after France and the NL voted no. It broke its own rules and imposed it anyway in the form of the Lisbon treaty. Caveat any system of governance that doesn't abide even by its own rules.

The ECJ on an almost daily basis acts ultra vires, extending its mandate over sovereign states without legal authority. Caveat lawyers operating outside the law courtesy of encouragement from unelected leaders.

The EU removed two democratically elected governments and replaced them with its own technocrats. In what democratic society has that ever happened before?

We will all suffer economically (for a while) if we vote to leave the EU especially those of us on this forum. But at least we'll save our kids from a life without democracy.

The EU is not benign and incompetent as some would like to believe. It is already a fully fledged oligarchy with a clear declared intent to drive towards greater centralised power without democratic legitimacy. Indeed worse than that - with complete disdain for the ordinary voter.

Nor is the EU capable of change from within. Cameron's pitiful attempt at renegotiation proved that beyond all doubt.

If you vote to remain then be clear about what is going to happen next.

The EU will carry out its plan to dismantle the City and it will enforce Euro membership.

Maybe you think that would be great. In which case I suggest you go and talk to one or more of the 50% of youngsters who are unemplyed and rapidly becoming unemployable just over the border.
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Considered, Thoughtful, Balanced Opinion

Post by GrahamC »

Here's a link to an article by an economist that we all ought to take heed of:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... dont-know/

Here's a link to an article by Janet Daley, a former marxist intellectual turned free marketeer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04 ... endered-t/

This is her most telling paragraph:

"When this referendum began, what seems an eternity ago, I was unsure how I would vote. Membership of the EU on a day-to-day basis is pretty much all gain for me, because I am an affluent professional who benefits from the supply of inexpensive domestic help, willing tradesmen and convenient travel that the EU provides. Unlike those whose wages are being undercut by cheap imported labour, or who cannot afford to buy their own homes because of the pressure on housing from unlimited immigration, I have lost nothing.

But I believe in democratic legitimacy, which means paying attention to people who do not have my advantages. So should I go for self-interest, or for political principle? Watching this campaign, with its unscrupulous attempts to bully and terrorise a brave and conscientious electorate, has made up my mind. I shall be voting for Leave."
Last edited by GrahamC on Tue 26 Apr 2016 16:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by martyn94 »

GrahamC wrote:
martyn94 wrote:
So exactly how far, and exactly how, has this proto-totalitarian state developed towards a more fully totalitarian state over the last 10 years?

You say "Now look at it". When I do, I see very much the same imperfect and compromised, but ultimately benign, set-up as I have always seen. The word "totalitarian" has a meaning, and a serious one: many millions of people died in attempts to realise it, not long before I was born. It's not just a "Sun" slogan about bananas which are too crooked, or too straight. And of course the word "state" also has a meaning.
I was referring to the state of the Euro not the EU when I said now look at it. But to answer your question just read my list of points on Montgolfiere's other brexit rant.

Here's the executive summary:

The EU was constitutionally bound not to adopt the European Constitution after France and the NL voted no. It broke its own rules and imposed it anyway in the form of the Lisbon treaty. Caveat any system of governance that doesn't abide even by its own rules.

The ECJ on an almost daily basis acts ultra vires, extending its mandate over sovereign states without legal authority. Caveat lawyers operating outside the law courtesy of encouragement from unelected leaders.

The EU removed two democratically elected governments and replaced them with its own technocrats. In what democratic society has that ever happened before?

We will all suffer economically (for a while) if we vote to leave the EU especially those of us on this forum. But at least we'll save our kids from a life without democracy.

The EU is not benign and incompetent as some would like to believe. It is already a fully fledged oligarchy with a clear declared intent to drive towards greater centralised power without democratic legitimacy. Indeed worse than that - with complete disdain for the ordinary voter.

Nor is the EU capable of change from within. Cameron's pitiful attempt at renegotiation proved that beyond all doubt.

If you vote to remain then be clear about what is going to happen next.

The EU will carry out its plan to dismantle the City and it will enforce Euro membership.

Maybe you think that would be great. In which case I suggest you go and talk to one or more of the 50% of youngsters who are unemplyed and rapidly becoming unemployable just over the border.[/quote]

I did read the charge sheet in your other post, and decided to pass on. It seemed to me that the points were either groundless or trivial. But the way you expressed them made me think that you were so passionately committed that argument would be futile.

That's what has always mystified me about europhobia over decades (Santiago touched on it): europhobes are obviously passionately, and sincerely, concerned about something, but what they are able to say about that something seems, to me, either unintelligible or uninteresting. That may be my fault: but it makes me think that argument about the detail - or montgolfiere's thirst for FACTS - is beside the point.

I still can't help responding to one point: you say that the EU "removed" two democratically-elected governments. If electors in a democracy are offered Xmas twice a week by their prospective rulers, I can understand why they might like that (and, God knows, it worked well enough for years). But when the train hits the buffers, I don't see why the result can fairly be called a coup d'état.

And, finally, Janet Daley (sic) may have been a Marxist in her youth (so was I, for about 10 days): but it is a stretch to believe that she has ever been an intellectual.
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Post by GrahamC »

Oh here we go again. Remainers can't come up with counter arguments so instead have to respond with personal insults.

Europhobia? You clearly don't know what the word means. Phobia is an irrational fear of something. There's nothing irrational about Brexiters' fears of the erosion of democracy.

So you think democratic illegitimacy is trivial do you? You think endemic corruption is nothing to worry about? You think that voters in democracies who misbehave (by your standards) should be denied the right to choose their own governments? You think that all the democracies in Europe should be frogmarched into an oligarchy against their wishes do you? Really?. Oh please.

Oh, and Janet Daley was a lecturer in Philosophy at the Open University for 20 years. Not an intellectual?

Neither you nor Montgolfiere have a thirst for FACTS. You actively ignore them when put in front of your face. If you had any degree of open mindedness about the Brexit debate you might actually bother to research the 'charge sheet' as you put it.
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Post by martyn94 »

GrahamC wrote:Oh here we go again. Remainers can't come up with counter arguments so instead have to respond with personal insults.

Europhobia? You clearly don't know what the word means. Phobia is an irrational fear of something. There's nothing irrational about Brexiters' fears of the erosion of democracy.

So you think democratic illegitimacy is trivial do you? You think endemic corruption is nothing to worry about? You think that voters in democracies who misbehave (by your standards) should be denied the right to choose their own governments? You think that all the democracies in Europe should be frogmarched into an oligarchy against their wishes do you? Really?. Oh please.

Oh, and Janet Daley was a lecturer in Philosophy at the Open University for 20 years. Not an intellectual?

Neither you nor Montgolfiere have a thirst for FACTS. You actively ignore them when put in front of your face. If you had any degree of open mindedness about the Brexit debate you might actually bother to research the 'charge sheet' as you put it.


I know the charge sheet front back and sideways. I just don't want to get into over-excited debate about it. And I once met Marta Andreasen, decades ago.
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Post by GrahamC »

If you don't wan't to get into a debate about it then why are you contributing to this thread.
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Post by martyn94 »

GrahamC wrote:If you don't wan't to get into a debate about it then why are you contributing to this thread.
Essentially as an exercise in applied anthropology: it's obvious that you are mad as hell about something. But nothing that you claim to be mad about seems remotely sufficient to justify the extreme vehemence of your statements. So what else are you mad about? Who the hell knows?
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Post by Gus Morris »

I am all for a rational debate on the pros and cons of continued UK memberhip of the EU. I am prepared to listen to the arguments of eurosceptic British citizens who stand by their convictions and reside within their sceptered isle. Using the benefits of EU membership to live outside the homeland while at the same time arguing against the system seems to me to be hypocritical.

Gus
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Post by GrahamC »

martyn94 wrote:
GrahamC wrote:If you don't wan't to get into a debate about it then why are you contributing to this thread.
Essentially as an exercise in applied anthropology: it's obvious that you are mad as hell about something. But nothing that you claim to be mad about seems remotely sufficient to justify the extreme vehemence of your statements. So what else are you mad about? Who the hell knows?
What I am as mad as hell about Martyn is the attempt by the Remainers to dismiss all contrary view as being the product of loonies. As Allan pointed out in another thread, the papers and the internet are full of cogent arguments for and against. Dismissing such opposing views as idiocy is just plain facism. (Perhaps I reacted too strongly to the OP. Having now seen the quality of his contributions to this debate I can see that getting upset was pointless).

As I pointed out in an earlier post, exactly the same tactic was employed by the pro Euro camp. Anyone who argued against them was clearly a loon. You don't hear from them anymore and you certainly can no longer find a decent economist who would argue that the Euro is a good thing.

It is not, Gus, hypocritical to love Europe and loathe the EU. For some of us the EU represents the greatest threat to Europe. Personally I would absolutely wish to Remain were it not for the fact that the EU appears to be incapable of change. More specifically it is incapable of curtailing its grasp for supranational power.

Choosing to vote Leave is not something I have done lightly. I had really hoped that Cameron's attempt at renegotiation would have caused other nations to reflect more deeply on the nature of the organisation. What became clear is that the EU is bound by its own hubris and its blind conceit.

The fact is, the EU refused to make even the smallest, most trivial concessions when threatened with the exit of the world's 5th largest economy so it is fanciful, wishful thinking to believe it will become more amenable to argument if we vote to stay.

I too have my reservations about unqualified democracy but that is no reason to surrender my right to choose the people who govern us. I would have thought there are enough lessons from history for us all to be very wary of undemocratic regimes. For all its faults democracy at least allows scope for individuality, creativity, freedom of expression and freedom to protest.

For some of us the rise of the far right and far left in Europe would have been unthinkable only 20 years ago. There are many who argue that this is the direct result of democratic deficit.

It should also be clear to all by now that the EU is not simply populated by people trying to do their best - and generally bumbling along. Recall Jean Claude Juncker's comment: 'when it becomes serious, you have to lie'.

Political union in a United States of Europe has been the more or less hidden agenda (in Britain) since day one. One might argue that it it is still being hidden by the Remainers because, even now, they choose to argue their case on narrow issues. Not one of the political leaders of the Remain camp dares to stand up and say: yes I'm voting for complete transfer of sovereignty from the UK to Brussels'. It would be political suicide and they know it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05 ... o-place-i/

I'm happy to continue this debate in the hope that I might persuade even one Remainer to change his or her mind. I sincerely hope that at least some reading these threads will understand that the issues at stake are indeed something to get worked up about.

Some on this forum think that expressing a contrary view and arguing forcefully is either trolling or boring or a man thing. Personally I think that a little temporary upset in this otherwise enjoyable forum is worth the trouble. Momentous tipping points in history, as this is, are extremely rare. We have a duty to think this through carefully.
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Post by martyn94 »

I don't think I've ever described Brexiters, as such, as loonies. But I have to say that their arguments describe a world that I just don't recognise, and it's maybe hard to express that without seeming condescending. If I'm guilty, I apologise.

It is, nevertheless, a world I don't recognise. GrahamC writes of the EU as if it were a monolithic entity "incapable of curtailing its grasp for supranational power"; a "regime", and what's worse an undemocratic one; and one which has committed the various enormities in his other posts - overthrowing elected Governments, confiscating money from Cypriots, and the rest.

Even allowing for the heat of the moment, that seems to me absurdly hyperbolic. The "EU" is just shorthand for a messy set of institutional arrangements (certainly imperfect in all sorts of ways) which were designed, and have been freely signed up to, by lots of sovereign governments. The irony is that the "democratic deficit" was designed in, and has been sustained by member states, exactly to deny the central institutions any claim to be a "state" or anything close to one.

It's pretty much a cliché for people who have actually been involved in the daily work of the EU to stress how far it is, in their experience, from the sort of unaccountable power that Brexiters describe. But like most clichés, this is largely true, and certainly true in my experience. Negotiating things in the EU takes more patience than I normally command, and a strong bladder, but can produce genuinely useful results, sometimes even in less than a decade.

GrahamC adds his own stone to the pile on another thread: he was apparently paid a lot of money by the EU to write a useless report. That is obviously undesirable (though he seems to have been content to take the money), but it hardly adds to the picture of a power-mad superstate: rather the contrary.

I know that this not going to convince GrahamC: not because he's a loony, but because he sees the world, at a visceral level, in a quite different way from me, which no amount of "debate" here seems likely to change.
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Post by GrahamC »

martyn94 wrote:I don't think I've ever described Brexiters, as such, as loonies. It is, nevertheless, a world I don't recognise. GrahamC writes of the EU as if it were a monolithic entity "incapable of curtailing its grasp for supranational power"; a "regime", and what's worse an undemocratic one; and one which has committed the various enormities in his other posts - overthrowing elected Governments, confiscating money from Cypriots, and the rest.

Even allowing for the heat of the moment, that seems to me absurdly hyperbolic. The "EU" is just shorthand for a messy set of institutional.
Were I alone in my views, or if the confiscation of money from private accounts had not in fact ocurred, or if the claim that democratically elected governments were replaced by the Troika was untrue then I would have to concede that my world view was unrealistic and indeed 'absurdly hyperbolic'.

But, unfortunately these facts are true, as are the charges of corruption. And I am not alone in my views because very senior current and retired politicians have independently reached the same view. Indeed following the putsch that ousted the Greek government the question was even asked in Cabinet "are we comfortable with this".

The EU used to be a set of messy institutions but it is inexorably and very deliberately evolving into a federal architecture exactly as was intended right from the very beginning with the European Coal and Steel organisation (the precursor to the EEC).

International Socialism is not something I would normally read, but their article on the direction the EU is taking reveals some interesting historical facts.

http://isj.org.uk/the-internationalist- ... ean-union/

As for my own involvement with the EU, I had been in charge of a TACIS team for some months (believing that I was actually employed to do some good) before I was asked to write the concluding report. Only then did I understand that the whole thing was a crock of sh1t. A small taste of the pig trough which daily feeds thousands upon thousands of 'consultants' from vast sums of hard-earned taxpayers money.
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Post by martyn94 »

GrahamC wrote:
martyn94 wrote:I don't think I've ever described Brexiters, as such, as loonies. It is, nevertheless, a world I don't recognise. GrahamC writes of the EU as if it were a monolithic entity "incapable of curtailing its grasp for supranational power"; a "regime", and what's worse an undemocratic one; and one which has committed the various enormities in his other posts - overthrowing elected Governments, confiscating money from Cypriots, and the rest.

Even allowing for the heat of the moment, that seems to me absurdly hyperbolic. The "EU" is just shorthand for a messy set of institutional.
Were I alone in my views, or if the confiscation of money from private accounts had not in fact ocurred, or if the claim that democratically elected governments were replaced by the Troika was untrue then I would have to concede that my world view was unrealistic and indeed 'absurdly hyperbolic'.

But, unfortunately these facts are true, as are the charges of corruption. And I am not alone in my views because very senior current and retired politicians have independently reached the same view. Indeed following the putsch that ousted the Greek government the question was even asked in Cabinet "are we comfortable with this".

The EU used to be a set of messy institutions but it is inexorably and very deliberately evolving into a federal architecture exactly as was intended right from the very beginning with the European Coal and Steel organisation (the precursor to the EEC).

International Socialism is not something I would normally read, but their article on the direction the EU is taking reveals some interesting historical facts.

http://isj.org.uk/the-internationalist- ... ean-union/

As for my own involvement with the EU, I had been in charge of a TACIS team for some months (believing that I was actually employed to do some good) before I was asked to write the concluding report. Only then did I understand that the whole thing was a crock of sh1t. A small taste of the pig trough which daily feeds thousands upon thousands of 'consultants' from vast sums of hard-earned taxpayers money.
I think it is bit misleading to skate over the fact that the Cypriot banks were staggeringly insolvent. Unsecured creditors can normally expect to take a bath in such circumstances: in fact they just took a "haircut", and deposits under €100,000 were protected. The EU did not force Cypriot bankers to go mad, nor did it force depositors to put their money in unsound banks (very largely to evade tax, and quite often - notably for the Russian depositors - using money they had stolen). The EU could, with hindsight, be accused of not taking more interest in all this before it went to pot. But you would regard that as supranational over-reach.

Similarly, mutatis mutandis, for the governments which were "replaced" when they ran out of the capacity to borrow any more. Calvin Coolidge is credited with one of the great modern quotes when asked about writing off the UK's WW1 debts to the US: "they hired the money, didn't they?". Much of what you say seems to me to reduce itself to that.
Last edited by martyn94 on Wed 04 May 2016 22:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Still Brexit

Post by Tim and Anna »

I love a good argument but that is one thing that has been sadly lacking in the UK. I admire Gove, IDS and Grayling even though I completely disagree with them, but Boris has shot his opportunist bolt, hopefully for good. I look forward to joining in energetically but my wife says I must try to be restrained and polite until I have "earned my stripes" in the P-O community. Fair comment, but please see our signature block and our plea for lodging.
Looking forward to setting up in P-O asap, regards to all, Tim
Tim is a French-speaking business consultant, Anna a careers adviser. We have been living in Amersham. We love the Ceret area and we want to buy a plot and build a house. WE NEED A RENTAL HOUSE FOR 12-18 MONTHS, BUDGET up to 1000 EUROS. CAN YOU HELP US?
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Post by Kate »

Hello Tim and Anna
I will share this with the Facebook group as well in the hopes that somebody might be able to help you from there. Very best of luck, hope you find someone soon. You have chosen a beautiful place to live. :lol:

And yes, your wife is absolutely right. Men do tend to get carried away on the forum and come over as grumpy b----s. You should all take a leaf out of us ladies' books - Calm, thoughtful, teetotal, never shout, scream or exaggerate......loooooooooooooooool
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Post by GrahamC »


Similarly, mutatis mutandis, for the governments which were "replaced" when they ran out of the capacity to borrow any more. Calvin Coolidge is credited with one of the great modern quotes when asked about writing off the UK's WW1 debts to the US: "they hired the money, didn't they?". Much of what you say seems to me to reduce itself to that.
Call me old fashioned Martyn but I prefer a system in which, when governments screw up, they are replaced by the electorate not a cabal of unelected corrupt, old, white men.

Oh, and a 'messy set of institutions' as you like to call the EU doesn't have the power to replace governments - a federal architecture does that.

Perhaps you have also forgotten the Austrian elections in which Jorg Heider appeared to be in the ascendant. The EU attempted to intervene in the democratic process by threatening suspension/exclusion from the EU.

I'm surprised that you and others are so sanguine about the deep structural changes to our democracies that are already taking place. Let alone the looming prospect of a Soviet Europe in which regional governments are the puppets of an unelected centre.
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Post by martyn94 »

GrahamC wrote:

Similarly, mutatis mutandis, for the governments which were "replaced" when they ran out of the capacity to borrow any more. Calvin Coolidge is credited with one of the great modern quotes when asked about writing off the UK's WW1 debts to the US: "they hired the money, didn't they?". Much of what you say seems to me to reduce itself to that.
Call me old fashioned Martyn but I prefer a system in which, when governments screw up, they are replaced by the electorate not a cabal of unelected corrupt, old, white men.
The problem arises when member states' electorates don't throw out govts which have screwed up, but re-elect them, or simply swap them for another govt which is equally corrupt, clientelist, incompetent or simply deluded (perm any three from four) which then screw up in their turn. And then rinse and repeat. The electorates' response may be intelligible in the short run (they are after all the clienteles that their pols are trying to please). And the "short run" can carry on for quite a while so long as your govt can still borrow. But the financial markets are not sentimental about democracy. When you have no expedient left but to ask your friends for an enormous bailout on non-market terms, the results may be painful, but they are not a coup d'état, just self-inflicted wounds.

You can argue, I suppose, that both the EU and the euro have made it easier, for a while, for badly-governed countries to get away with it. But they did not have a gun to their back. And it is not, in any event, the UK's case.

Haider's case is rather different. It's a matter of judgment what counts as interference in a member state's internal politics. Saying that his intended policies (apart from being abhorrent) were incompatible with continued EU membership seems to me no more than factual, and not even unwelcome to his hardcore supporters.
montgolfiere
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Post by montgolfiere »

The Brexouters know nothing as 'Fact'. They can only Second Guess what will happen. I cannot risk this uncertainty and anyway support the idea of a 'common' Europe....... Listening to their ? ideas? this morning seemed to suggest that they imagine we could leave the Eu and still have all the benefits of Membership. They live in Cloud Cukoo land...... I can just see how the French, at least, would be rubbing their hands as to how they could remove all the advantages us Expats currently enjoy just as soon as possible!!!

Unfortunately the so called wonderfully Democratic Government in the UK has already stripped me of my right to vote. Not a very good advertisment for the Future in their Utopia....

Roll on the 24th when we can celebrate the end of this Brexout Folly...

The Brexouters are th made up of the dregs and failed Politicos of the UK Establishment. Gove, Farage, Boris, Duncan Smythe (failed ex leader of the Tories) just to name a few....

The Stay Camapign seem to have 99% of the rational Politicians supporting their Cause.....All the Hype of the Brexouters is fermented by the 90% of Media, espercially Muddock, who are campaigning for Exit. Shame on them...again not very Democratic.

VOTE STAY, dont be a Turkey........
martyn94
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Post by martyn94 »

montgolfiere wrote:
Unfortunately the so called wonderfully Democratic Government in the UK has already stripped me of my right to vote. Not a very good advertisment for the Future in their Utopia....
.
I am firmly in the In camp for what it's worth. But this is hardly accurate. Historically, non-UK-residents had no right to vote. Mrs Thatcher's govt extended voting rights to non-UK-residents, and then extended them again, for wholly cynical reasons (they tended to vote for her). All the present govt has done is not extend them further again.

As has been said by others, I don't think that anyone on either side can claim that their judgments are FACTS.
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Post by GrahamC »


As has been said by others, I don't think that anyone on either side can claim that their judgments are FACTS.
Thank you Martyn, I'm glad to see you admit that the Remain side of this debate (on this forum at least) has provided only opinions and no facts.

But to attempt to apply that to the Leavers is patently untrue. I have given you a string of facts, some of which you have chosen to ignore completely - presumably because they are too difficult to counter. Others you attempt to explain away in increasingly disingenuous terms.

Your benign opinion that the EU is a 'messy set of institutions' completely ignores the facts. Ignores for example, the endemic corruption, the existence of an EU diplomatic corps, the repeated attempts to establish an EU army and a self-serving European Court of Justice that systematically reinterprets the treaties so as to assign more power to the EU centre and itself.

Moreover, whilst admitting to the fact of democratic deficit you dismiss its significance despite the fact of widespread European disenchantment with federalism.

Indeed you are starting to contradict yourself. On the one hand you claim that the EU has no pretentions to a Federal Europe (just a 'messy set of institutions' as you put it) but then on the other, you attempt to justify the overthrow of democratically elected governments and the interference with sovereign democratic processes as either nesesaary or in some way deserved. You can, of course, make that arguemt, but not at the same time as holding that the EU is not a proto-federal structure.

By all means counter my facts with facts of your own but don't attempt to explain away the awkwardness of your position by dismissing factual argument as opinion.

I for one would be absolutely delighted if you would lay out the facts which have convinced you to Remain. Then we might have a properly illuminating discussion.

Meanwhile, more facts for you, this time from a former ambassador and private secretary to the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... lomats.pdf
GrahamC
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New MORI Poll of 9 European Countries

Post by GrahamC »

This one is just for you Montgolfiere.

It seems that there are a lot of us 'dregs' of society around Europe;)

Almost half (45%) of Europeans in the researched countries think their own country should hold a referendum on its EU membership. Again support for a referendum varies, though is never lower than four in ten, from 38% in Hungary to majorities in Italy and France (58% and 55%).
When asked how they would vote if a referendum on their country’s EU membership was held now, a third of Europeans in the selected countries say they would vote for their country to leave the EU. However, this figure differs markedly among the researched EU countries – almost half (48%) of Italians and roughly four in ten Frenchmen and Swedes (41% and 39% respectively) say they would vote “out” in a referendum on the EU in their country; in comparison, just one in five (22%) Poles would vote for their country to leave the EU if a referendum was organised now

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpubl ... he-EU.aspx
GrahamC
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Post by GrahamC »

Nice quote from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the Telegraph today:

"As I reported at the time, Spain's foreign minister José Manuel Garcia-Margallo told us that Brexit would lead to "terrible devastation" of our industries, leaving nothing left but "a few petty bankers" in xenophobic isolation.

"David Cameron must understand he cannot slow the speed of the EU cruiser," came the finger-waving admonition from Madrid
"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... sh-rage-o/

So, what the Spanish Foreign Minister is saying is that the 5th largest economy in the world has no say on the speed and direction of the EU.

This seems explain in part why we achieve a mere 7% success rate in getting British candidates into the EU diplomatic corps.
martyn94
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Post by martyn94 »

GrahamC wrote:

As has been said by others, I don't think that anyone on either side can claim that their judgments are FACTS.
Thank you Martyn, I'm glad to see you admit that the Remain side of this debate (on this forum at least) has provided only opinions and no facts.

But to attempt to apply that to the Leavers is patently untrue. I have given you a string of facts, some of which you have chosen to ignore completely - presumably because they are too difficult to counter. Others you attempt to explain away in increasingly disingenuous terms.

Your benign opinion that the EU is a 'messy set of institutions' completely ignores the facts. Ignores for example, the endemic corruption, the existence of an EU diplomatic corps, the repeated attempts to establish an EU army and a self-serving European Court of Justice that systematically reinterprets the treaties so as to assign more power to the EU centre and itself.

Moreover, whilst admitting to the fact of democratic deficit you dismiss its significance despite the fact of widespread European disenchantment with federalism.

Indeed you are starting to contradict yourself. On the one hand you claim that the EU has no pretentions to a Federal Europe (just a 'messy set of institutions' as you put it) but then on the other, you attempt to justify the overthrow of democratically elected governments and the interference with sovereign democratic processes as either nesesaary or in some way deserved. You can, of course, make that arguemt, but not at the same time as holding that the EU is not a proto-federal structure.

By all means counter my facts with facts of your own but don't attempt to explain away the awkwardness of your position by dismissing factual argument as opinion.

I for one would be absolutely delighted if you would lay out the facts which have convinced you to Remain. Then we might have a properly illuminating discussion.

Meanwhile, more facts for you, this time from a former ambassador and private secretary to the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... lomats.pdf
This is silly. The Greek electorate voted themselves the right to carry on borrowing other peoples' money without any serious prospect of ever paying it back. I am sure they found that satisfying. But "democratic processes" are not binding on foreign lenders. When they declined to play ball, the result cannot sanely be regarded as an "overthrow" of a democratically elected Government, nor as "interference" with sovereign democratic processes. As for the process, the "EU's" attitude was entirely driven by the views of member states, notably Germany but also others, and the Commission was left struggling to smooth things over: as far from proto-federal as you could imagine.

But everything is proto-federal if you choose to see things through that lens.
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