a thought on....Passports, Driving Licences etc.

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Sat 16 Apr 2016 17:08

A Brexout will require the entire population of the UK to renew their Passports and Driving Licences. As we have all been issued with (European) Documents i can imagine that we will be required (at least by the rest of the EU) to replace our EU Documentation 'Forthwith'....the result = CHAOS and extreme EXPENSE... The loony Brexouters live in Cloud Cukoo Land and have not one rational reason that a Brexit would benefit the UK. Unfortunately the Rightwing press in the Uk is twisting the Minds of the Turkeys, and it is highly likely they will vote for Xmas... please everyone spend the next 61 days doing as much as possible to counter the Lies of these small minded , litttle Englander Nutters.

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Sat 16 Apr 2016 23:15

montgolfiere wrote:A Brexout will require the entire population of the UK to renew their Passports and Driving Licences. As we have all been issued with (European) Documents i can imagine that we will be required (at least by the rest of the EU) to replace our EU Documentation 'Forthwith'....the result = CHAOS and extreme EXPENSE... The loony Brexouters live in Cloud Cukoo Land and have not one rational reason that a Brexit would benefit the UK. Unfortunately the Rightwing press in the Uk is twisting the Minds of the Turkeys, and it is highly likely they will vote for Xmas... please everyone spend the next 61 days doing as much as possible to counter the Lies of these small minded , litttle Englander Nutters.

I entirely agree that Brexit would be an expensive mistake. But this stuff about passports and driving licences is FAIR AVERAGE NONSENSE. As expats, I think we should try to persuade others as best we can, but with a degree of care: we have, in many eyes, BETRAYED the mother country by moving here, and our motives are correspondingly SUSPECT.

Gus Morris · Post by **Gus Morris** » Sun 17 Apr 2016 10:58

One simple series of questions. Who REALLY wants the UK out of the EU? Who sees the disintegration of Europe as in their own best interests? Who wants us weak and divided?

In reality it would take years to unravel the UK's ties with Europe. And it would probably end up like Norway, Iceland or Switzerland. Unable to influence the EU but also unable to avoid the effects of many EU policy decisions.

Have a nice day you all!

Gus

neil mitchell · Post by **neil mitchell** » Sun 17 Apr 2016 12:59

I really wish you'd come down off the fence Monty!!

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Sun 17 Apr 2016 15:35

Gus Morris wrote:One simple series of questions. Who REALLY wants the UK out of the EU? Who sees the disintegration of Europe as in their own best interests? Who wants us weak and divided?

In reality it would take years to unravel the UK's ties with Europe. And it would probably end up like Norway, Iceland or Switzerland. Unable to influence the EU but also unable to avoid the effects of many EU policy decisions.

Have a nice day you all!

Gus

Those manipulated by the likes of the Murdoch press as they cannot decide anything for themselves and the loony Tory Right Wing and UKIP Type Nutters.

GrahamC · Post by **GrahamC** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 00:07

montgolfiere wrote:A Brexout will require the entire population of the UK to renew their Passports and Driving Licences. As we have all been issued with (European) Documents i can imagine that we will be required (at least by the rest of the EU) to replace our EU Documentation 'Forthwith'....the result = CHAOS and extreme EXPENSE... The loony Brexouters live in Cloud Cukoo Land and have not one rational reason that a Brexit would benefit the UK. Unfortunately the Rightwing press in the Uk is twisting the Minds of the Turkeys, and it is highly likely they will vote for Xmas... please everyone spend the next 61 days doing as much as possible to counter the Lies of these small minded , litttle Englander Nutters.

Hi Montgolfiere. I'm voting for Brexit so clearly I must be loony and right wing. No matter that I have two university degrees and run five businesses. No matter that I live as much as possible in France and speak the language, clearly I must also be a right wing loony xenophobe. Obviously I live in cloud cukoo land (sic) because even though I know how to spell cuckoo my businesses manage to employ staff and survive recessions entirely by themselves. Of course you must be right that there isn't one rational reason why Britain should leave the EU so please enlighten me by providing answers to the terribly simple numbskull questions below. I've been scratching my head for years but am clearly too dim to come up with cogent answers.

1. Why is there no democratic procedure for electing the 28 EU commissioners who are the political leaders of the EU? In fact can you name one democracy in the entire world where the political leadership is unelected (No, North Korea doesn't count).
2. Can you explain to me the process by which they are appointed?
3. Can you explain why Neil Kinnock, twice resoundingly rejected by the UK electorate as being unfit to lead the country, was appointed as one of our EU Commissioners just three years after his final defeat and why and by what democratic process did he then go on to become vice president of the EU?
4. Can you explain the historical reason why the EU was deliberately constructed as an oligarchy not a democracy and how or why the these reasons are still valid today?
5. Can you explain why 'Baroness' Ashton was appointed as the EU's High Representative for foreign affairs (brief CV: sociology degree, worked for CND, worked on some council for educating social workers, worked on some quango for disability in the workplace, worked on some quango for one-parent families, experience of politics or foreign affairs - absolutely sweet FA)
6. Marta Andreasen. Why was she fired for refusing to sign off the EU's accounts because they were unauditable? What would have happened to a business if the Board of Directors fired their accountant for pointing out fraud?
7. Expenses. Why do MEP have to offer no receipts, no proof of expenditure indeed no accounts at all for the first €100,000 of so called expenses?.
8. Two Parliaments. Why is the EU parliament the only parliament in the world that has to have two separate parliamentary buildings and supporting infrastructure when the cost of moving between the two is €200,000,000 per annum?
9. Why is there an EU parliament at all when more than 70% of all EU legislation is created by decree by unelected bureaucrats?
10. What democratic or moral principle allowed the EU to directly steal huge sums from every single Cypriot's private bank account?
11. Greece and Italy. What democratic or moral principle allowed the EU to topple two democratically elected governments and replace them with unelected technocrats?
12. Why does the EU permit 30-50% youth unemployment in some countries just so that others can enjoy a huge balance of payments surplus?

Those questions might be a little hard so here's a much easier one that unfortunately me with my little pea sized brain still can't answer. It's one about plebiscites and the rule of law..

When the European Constitution was proposed the rules and laws of the EU as they then existed dictated that it must be ratified by all 25 countries. If any one country failed to ratify then, by the EU's own laws, the Constitution could not be brought into effect. France and the Netherlands put it to their populations to decide. In both countries the Constitution was soundly rejected. So here's my question: by what democratic, legal or moral principle did the EU then decide to to go ahead and bring in the constitution anyway - simple by renaming it as the Treaty of Lisbon.

This being such a fundamental point of democratic principle Im sure there must be some detail I've overlooked hampered as I am by my loony brain. Once you've explained this one to me then I'm certain that I'll also be able to understand the plebiscites in Ireland on the question of Euro membership. Two plebiscite you may recall because on the first one the Irish apparently got the answer wrong.

Yours,

Graham

(The right wing loony who loves Europe and is stupid enough to believe that it could be governed properly)

Oh, one final question. I was once paid many thousands of Euros to write a 700 page report for the EU. When I asked about what detail it should contain the reply was "oh it doesn't matter, just as long as it's 700 pages long'. Can you please explain the particular qualitative benefits to the taxpayer of 700 paper pages?

Gus Morris · Post by **Gus Morris** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 08:40

Re post by Graham C

Sure, the EU needs sorting out. But the basic concept has merit. Considerable merit. I have travelled a bit in Europe. Visited the battlefields of two World Wars, seen Dachau. I recall London after the war, can still visualise the total devastation of Cologne in the 1960's. No less a person than Winston Churchill was an advocate of a United States of Europe. A way to bind us together so that we would never again resort to arms to resolve our disagreements.

It's easy to quit. But it takes guts, determination and vision to lead and spearhead change to make things better.

Running away when the going gets tough is for the morally bankrupt..

Gus Morris

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 08:48

Well Said Gus. we tremember how Europe was earlier in the 20th. Century. I am afraid after reading the Essay above my views still stand. A Brexout will lead to Economic at best, (total at worst), turmoil throughout Europe for 10 years. If the Uk goes then it is likely to be the start of the Break up of the EU and we all know where Nationalistic Zenophobic Policies could lead Europe....

Actually i dont really care too much about the Inner workings and whether the Welsh Windbag has a job or not , being somewhat selfish, i am most interested in my own Circumstances... The UK Ex Politicaians are of course totally 'Clean' and dont ride the Gravy Train with the Uk..... Ha Ha. It is so easy to blame all our 'Ills' on Brussels....

The EU has done massive good for the Uk and Europe.
he Brexouters do remind me of the the 'Life of Brian ..... What did the Romans ever do for us' Sketch.
Of couse nothing is ever perfect but then the UK Political System is pretty suspect with its outdated 1st. past the post voting system which leads to a 'dicatatorship' of Government having only been elected by around 35% - 45% of the electorate, ruling the majority......
VOTE STAY

vmaxvmax · Post by **vmaxvmax** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 09:13

I'm not too sure that I would use my academic qualifications, power and anger to make or prove a point. They might just serve to demonstrate the opposite...

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 10:14

Can any of these Brexouters please explain how i 'personally', with 'my actual situation', living in France, with 2 Kids (one just going through the French Uni system at no cost and another being educated for free in the School system), working as an Autoentrepreneur, coming up to Retirement with little if any French pension would benefit from leaving the EU.

Please only FACTS...not your usual cliches and general mistruths.....

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 13:25

GrahamC wrote:
montgolfiere wrote:A Brexout will require the entire population of the UK to renew their Passports and Driving Licences. As we have all been issued with (European) Documents i can imagine that we will be required (at least by the rest of the EU) to replace our EU Documentation 'Forthwith'....the result = CHAOS and extreme EXPENSE... The loony Brexouters live in Cloud Cukoo Land and have not one rational reason that a Brexit would benefit the UK. Unfortunately the Rightwing press in the Uk is twisting the Minds of the Turkeys, and it is highly likely they will vote for Xmas... please everyone spend the next 61 days doing as much as possible to counter the Lies of these small minded , litttle Englander Nutters.
Hi Montgolfiere. I'm voting for Brexit so clearly I must be loony and right wing. No matter that I have two university degrees and run five businesses. No matter that I live as much as possible in France and speak the language, clearly I must also be a right wing loony xenophobe. Obviously I live in cloud cukoo land (sic) because even though I know how to spell cuckoo my businesses manage to employ staff and survive recessions entirely by themselves. Of course you must be right that there isn't one rational reason why Britain should leave the EU so please enlighten me by providing answers to the terribly simple numbskull questions below. I've been scratching my head for years but am clearly too dim to come up with cogent answers.

1. Why is there no democratic procedure for electing the 28 EU commissioners who are the political leaders of the EU? In fact can you name one democracy in the entire world where the political leadership is unelected (No, North Korea doesn't count).
2. Can you explain to me the process by which they are appointed?
3. Can you explain why Neil Kinnock, twice resoundingly rejected by the UK electorate as being unfit to lead the country, was appointed as one of our EU Commissioners just three years after his final defeat and why and by what democratic process did he then go on to become vice president of the EU?
4. Can you explain the historical reason why the EU was deliberately constructed as an oligarchy not a democracy and how or why the these reasons are still valid today?
5. Can you explain why 'Baroness' Ashton was appointed as the EU's High Representative for foreign affairs (brief CV: sociology degree, worked for CND, worked on some council for educating social workers, worked on some quango for disability in the workplace, worked on some quango for one-parent families, experience of politics or foreign affairs - absolutely sweet FA)
6. Marta Andreasen. Why was she fired for refusing to sign off the EU's accounts because they were unauditable? What would have happened to a business if the Board of Directors fired their accountant for pointing out fraud?
7. Expenses. Why do MEP have to offer no receipts, no proof of expenditure indeed no accounts at all for the first €100,000 of so called expenses?.
8. Two Parliaments. Why is the EU parliament the only parliament in the world that has to have two separate parliamentary buildings and supporting infrastructure when the cost of moving between the two is €200,000,000 per annum?
9. Why is there an EU parliament at all when more than 70% of all EU legislation is created by decree by unelected bureaucrats?
10. What democratic or moral principle allowed the EU to directly steal huge sums from every single Cypriot's private bank account?
11. Greece and Italy. What democratic or moral principle allowed the EU to topple two democratically elected governments and replace them with unelected technocrats?
12. Why does the EU permit 30-50% youth unemployment in some countries just so that others can enjoy a huge balance of payments surplus?

Those questions might be a little hard so here's a much easier one that unfortunately me with my little pea sized brain still can't answer. It's one about plebiscites and the rule of law..

When the European Constitution was proposed the rules and laws of the EU as they then existed dictated that it must be ratified by all 25 countries. If any one country failed to ratify then, by the EU's own laws, the Constitution could not be brought into effect. France and the Netherlands put it to their populations to decide. In both countries the Constitution was soundly rejected. So here's my question: by what democratic, legal or moral principle did the EU then decide to to go ahead and bring in the constitution anyway - simple by renaming it as the Treaty of Lisbon.

This being such a fundamental point of democratic principle Im sure there must be some detail I've overlooked hampered as I am by my loony brain. Once you've explained this one to me then I'm certain that I'll also be able to understand the plebiscites in Ireland on the question of Euro membership. Two plebiscite you may recall because on the first one the Irish apparently got the answer wrong.

Yours,

Graham

(The right wing loony who loves Europe and is stupid enough to believe that it could be governed properly)

Oh, one final question. I was once paid many thousands of Euros to write a 700 page report for the EU. When I asked about what detail it should contain the reply was "oh it doesn't matter, just as long as it's 700 pages long'. Can you please explain the particular qualitative benefits to the taxpayer of 700 paper pages?

I can't imagine ever typing this much about the Second Coming of Christ, let alone the ins and outs of Euro-bureaucracy. The answer, in short, is that they do their best, by their lights, with the institutions and documents and political pressures that they've got, and that there is no alternative that I've seen that is anything like as good. Not very glamorous or uplifting, but human affairs often aren't. If you think that Europe could be governed more properly (and what human institution couldn't be?), stay in and get it done.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 13:50

montgolfiere wrote:Can any of these Brexouters please explain how i 'personally', with 'my actual situation', living in France, with 2 Kids (one just going through the French Uni system at no cost and another being educated for free in the School system), working as an Autoentrepreneur, coming up to Retirement with little if any French pension would benefit from leaving the EU.

Please only FACTS...not your usual cliches and general mistruths.....

There may well be no reasons at all why you would benefit but the referendum isn't just about you. I am sure you will vote to stay, along with most of us that have vested interests.

GrahamC puts his point of view eloquently and I think it is wrong to dismiss him and others who favour an exit as nutters, they probably care as much about your personal circumstances as you care about theirs and have their own reasons for wanting to leave.He makes strong points about the unconstitutional and undemocratic principles of the EU, personally I think democracy is over-rated, it scares me that decisions can be made by a majority of people that don't actually understand what they are voting for. I think for must of us, the decision will be based on financial and lifestyle reasons.

As it happens, I am firmly in the 'stay' camp and it seems to me that the choice is between the current situation with all its flaws, or a leap into the unknown.

The 'leave' campaigners seem to be working on the principle that 'it will be all right on the night', and that everything lost through leaving the EU could easily be regained by simple negotiation. Unfortunately life is not like that and I personally can well do without the inevitable years of uncertainty.

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 14:06

Unfortunately i cant vote in the Uk (or anywhere else). That makes me even more Irritated.

still awaiting some real Brexout Benefit FACTS.

vmaxvmax · Post by **vmaxvmax** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 14:27

montgolfiere wrote:Unfortunately i cant vote in the Uk (or anywhere else). That makes me even more Irritated.

still awaiting some real Breakout Benefit FACTS.

I wouldn't hold my breath...

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 14:38

vmaxvmax wrote:
montgolfiere wrote:Unfortunately i cant vote in the Uk (or anywhere else). That makes me even more Irritated.

still awaiting some real Breakout Benefit FACTS.
I wouldn't hold my breath...

Me neither, as they dont seem to have anything to say other than we are Scaremongers.

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 17:14

still waiting.....

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 17:20

montgolfiere wrote:still waiting.....

I don't think any of us on this forum knows all your personal circumstances or indeed could be bothered to give you reasons to stay in the EU.

It may have escaped your attention but the press and the internet are jam-packed with arguments for and against staying. Why don't you read them instead of issuing ridiculous challenges to a small group on a forum.

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Mon 18 Apr 2016 17:42

Allan wrote:
montgolfiere wrote:still waiting.....
I don't think any of us on this forum knows all your personal circumstances or indeed could be bothered to give you reasons to stay in the EU.

It may have escaped your attention but the press and the internet are jam-packed with arguments for and against staying. Why don't you read them instead of issuing ridiculous challenges to a small group on a forum.

Just waiting for some real arguments from the Brexouters instead of their normal. 'we' are scaremongering comments. Maybe you should read the previous comments in this thread.... Really importsant that the vote goes for a Stay.

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Thu 28 Apr 2016 13:11

Just Breaking: The High Court in the UK has ruled that expats abroad for more than 15 years CANNOT vote in the referendum...

Lanark Lass · Post by **Lanark Lass** » Thu 28 Apr 2016 13:52

There will be an appeal

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Fri 29 Apr 2016 14:41

Lanark Lass wrote:There will be an appeal

If they are granted leave. But if they are, I imagine they will lose again. The High Court's reasoning, as reported, seemed entirely confident and reasonably convincing, at least to me. National Governments get a significant "margin of appreciation" on human rights claims, and I would have thought that this is well within it. I know that I'm in a minority on this

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