UK Referendum on continued British membership of the EU

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montgolfiere
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Post by montgolfiere » Fri 24 Jun 2016 08:30

A complete disaster for the Uk. This is the Starting Gun for the rise of right wing politics around Europe, especially a boost for 'les pens' and ultimately could lead to trumpton winning in the US. the can of worms is totally opened.

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russell
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Post by russell » Fri 24 Jun 2016 09:56

10% drop in the value of our UK pensions already - worse to come.

That's what happens when the elected leaders of a government are too weak to govern and are afraid to make major decisions themselves. Instead decisions are made by the uneducated masses who are too easily influenced by rhetoric and downright lies.

Remember what happened last time there was a rise in extreme right wing nationalism in Europe? Lets hope it can be avoided this time.

Russell.

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Post by GrahamC » Fri 24 Jun 2016 15:36

russell wrote:10% drop in the value of our UK pensions already - worse to come.

That's what happens when the elected leaders of a government are too weak to govern and are afraid to make major decisions themselves. Instead decisions are made by the uneducated masses who are too easily influenced by rhetoric and downright lies.

Remember what happened last time there was a rise in extreme right wing nationalism in Europe? Lets hope it can be avoided this time.

Russell.
No it's not. It what happens when an UNelected governing elite far divorced from reality are too arrogant and conceited to listen to the people.

Brexit is 100% the fault of the EU. It could have, and should have, shown humility and demonstrated that it could respond sympathetically and flexibly to the concerns of millions of people residing in the second largest economy in Europe. But no it didn't. Instead the pipsqueak cretins from joke 'countries' like Belgium and Luxembourg thought they could arrogantly brush aside massive popular discontent.

The entire Commission should be sacked for utter incompetence. As one political commentator put it, the choice for the EU Commission was to bend or to break. They chose not to bend.

As for lies, again the Commission did itself no favours making an open boast that lying is necessary when the push comes to a shove.

I voted for Brexit but I would have voted to Remain had those arseholes in Brussels shown any appetite for conciliation. Even this morning they're still not getting it, talking as they are now about further tax harmonisation and social charges harmonisation.

Finally, Lanark Lass and others, don't dismiss 17.4 million people as idiots just because they don't happen to conform to your world view. A lot of very intelligent people thought very hard before making their decisions. Some, no doubt, a lot brighter and better educated than you.

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Post by Lanark Lass » Fri 24 Jun 2016 17:06

Graham, for your information I am university educated so think myself to be reasonably intelligent.

I still maintain that xenophobia rules. The English still think they have an empire. Scotland and N. Ireland may now consider leaving England to it.

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russell
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Post by russell » Fri 24 Jun 2016 18:10

GrahamC wrote:A lot of very intelligent people thought very hard before making their decisions.
Yes Graham, I did for one. However a much greater number of unintelligent people did not.

Russell.

montgolfiere
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Post by montgolfiere » Sat 25 Jun 2016 09:16

you only have to look at the profile of where the brexiter voted... oh well Xmas will be coming to quite a lot of them when the multinationals start pulling their manufacturing plants out of the uk. eg. Toyota, Landrover etc.and of course the uk is highly likely to break up as well. what a result.

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Gus Morris
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Post by Gus Morris » Sat 25 Jun 2016 10:30

I beg the administrators not to remove the foul and offensive diatribe from Graham C.

Rarely have I seen so many offensive sentiments packed into so few words. I write this as one who left school at the age of 16. Just because we don't have a string of letters after our names does not make us idiots. I may only have the IQ of a turnip but I think I compensate with a smattering of common sense and the informal education that travelling the world gives me. Some of my ancestors came from what are described as "joke countries". But cretins they were not. Foul speech does not impress. Indeed it revolts. Would Graham C sit quietly if I described him publicly in the manner to which he descended?

Let his words stand as a reminder to any who read this of the mindset of those who would plunge the world into chaos.

Gus Morris,

PS In the interests of balance I should state that trawling through social media I found equally offensive stuff originating from the other side of the fence

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Post by martyn94 » Sat 25 Jun 2016 11:46

GrahamC wrote:Finally, Lanark Lass and others, don't dismiss 17.4 million people as idiots just because they don't happen to conform to your world view. A lot of very intelligent people thought very hard before making their decisions. Some, no doubt, a lot brighter and better educated than you.
The only people that I know voted leave are the 90-year old parents of a 65-year-old friend. He was absolutely shattered when they volunteered the fact. He has French children and grandchildren - their (much-loved) grandchildren and great grandchildren. They have had a house in dordogneshire for over 50 years. They are certainly well-educated, and were once "bright", though perhaps that's fading a bit. They have certainly not suffered financially or in any other respect from our presence in the EU, nor from immigration. Rather the contrary: their cosy suburb is very popular with star players from the Merseyside football teams, few of of them Brits, and they must be a few hundred grand richer as a result.

But the decisive fact is that they are very old - and have taken their views, for many years, primarily from the Daily Telegraph. Although I wish them a long life, they will very likely be dead before we become formally detached from the EU at their behest.

The analysis I have seen suggests that the propensity to vote out increased markedly with age, lack of education, and living in places which have been left behind by globalisation and de-industrialisation. I don't begin to blame anyone for that: no sane person expects that voters in a referendum will necessarily respond to the question actually on the ballot paper. Which is one of many good reasons not to have them.

But I will not pretend to believe that our national powers of rational analysis are concentrated primarily in places like Nuneaton and West Bromwich, nice as they may be.
Last edited by martyn94 on Sat 25 Jun 2016 14:01, edited 1 time in total.

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malcolmcooper
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Post by malcolmcooper » Sat 25 Jun 2016 12:02

Perhaps the overs 50's (me included) should not have had a vote.
Malcolm Cooper

I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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russell
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Post by russell » Sat 25 Jun 2016 13:07

Martyn, you have a PM.

Russell

GrahamC
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Post by GrahamC » Sat 25 Jun 2016 13:26

Technically Jean Claude Juncker is not a 'cretin'. So I accept that that particular adjective was not appropriate. However, this odious political pigmy was ejected from high office in his own Grand Duchy for failing to monitor and stamp on corruption. And his punishment? To be selected as an EU commissioner representing a population of just 540k with equal voice as our representative of a population of 60 million. Worse still to be selected be President of the European Commission where he is free to voice his own vile xenophopic opinions about the British population. Today he continues to stoke tensions with ill judged remarks.

Belgium is a joke country, comprising as it does two separate nations who can't even agree to form a government.

I accept that I'm in a minority of one of this thread, but I'm very happy to stand up for the core principle that the people who make the laws which govern us should be elected by us.

On this forum, the sneering contempt for democracy, the vile xenophopic rejection and dismissal of your own countrymens' intelligence, the inability to consider the alternative view, and the patronising self-righteous pronouncements is frankly one of the most unedifying spectacles that I have ever witnessed.

That's me done. No need to contribute further to the thread because the decision is made and you lost. And I am really glad you did.

Our children and grandchildren will now be free to select their own governments and have a say in the laws that govern them. Thank god for democracy.

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Post by Lanark Lass » Sat 25 Jun 2016 13:44

Graham, as you are so obviously anti-Europe I fail to see how you can continue to live in the European Union.Its against your principles.

My country voted to remain in Europe - and is even now considering how to arrange this.

If Europe now breaks down because of right wing politics - well, everyone knows what happened in 1939.

I don't want to risk a war for the children and grandchildren Seems you do.

Bye Graham.

martyn94
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Post by martyn94 » Sat 25 Jun 2016 14:18

GrahamC wrote:Technically Jean Claude Juncker is not a 'cretin'. So I accept that that particular adjective was not appropriate. However, this odious political pigmy......
This is reminiscent of the apocryphal correction in a Belfast paper: we apologise for referring to the Bishop of Rome as the ""Whore of Babylon"; we should, of course, have called him "the Scarlet Woman of Rome".

Since you seem to have won, it would be magnanimous if you could tone down the vulgar abuse.

martyn94
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Post by martyn94 » Sat 25 Jun 2016 14:28

malcolmcooper wrote:Perhaps the overs 50's (me included) should not have had a vote.
Perhaps none of should have had. D Cameron's "legacy" risks being less than stellar.

montgolfiere
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Post by montgolfiere » Sat 25 Jun 2016 14:30

https://petition.parliament.uk/petition ... atures/new

any remainers might like to sign this.....it is being signed at over 2500 a minute at the moment

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Post by Karen » Sat 25 Jun 2016 15:05

Thank you

Signed it last night.

Karen

martyn94
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Post by martyn94 » Sat 25 Jun 2016 16:10

Karen wrote:Thank you

Signed it last night.

Karen
I can guess what it's trying to say, but it doesn't seem to be in English. And doomed anyway, much as I would wish otherwise. The Brexiteers don't like being dictated to by "elites": they would be fit to be tied, and turn out in even greater numbers, if we tried to take away their bone.

Give it a few years of misery, and ineffectual negotiation, and it might be different, but I doubt it. When exactly is BoJo going to say that no deal on offer is as good as the one we had, and who would give a damn if he did? The Brexiters are about lashing out, and I guess they will have plenty to lash out about. Or maybe the midlands will become the workshop of the world for a second time: who knows?

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Post by Smiley G » Sat 25 Jun 2016 17:51

It has been 13 months (24:05:15) since I started this thread. Never for one moment did I think it would degenerate into the sort of vitriolic/bilious and totally non-productive rubbish that I see posted.
You all seem to have missed the point, that if this this arrogant government had delivered on another of its manifesto promises, namely the end of the 15 year ExPat voting rule, then the likelihood is that Remain would have won the day.
I have decided to quit the forum as I no longer wish to be associated with some of the totally inflammatory and accusory comments. In signing off for the last time, I would like to thank Kate & Sue for all their hard work and those of you, you know who you are, who have been kind enough to provide advice, help and support in answer to some of my posts over the many years.
Goodbye.
Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.

martyn94
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Post by martyn94 » Sat 25 Jun 2016 20:24

Smiley G wrote:It has been 13 months (24:05:15) since I started this thread. Never for one moment did I think it would degenerate into the sort of vitriolic/bilious and totally non-productive rubbish that I see posted.
You all seem to have missed the point, that if this this arrogant government had delivered on another of its manifesto promises, namely the end of the 15 year ExPat voting rule, then the likelihood is that Remain would have won the day.
I have decided to quit the forum as I no longer wish to be associated with some of the totally inflammatory and accusory comments. In signing off for the last time, I would like to thank Kate & Sue for all their hard work and those of you, you know who you are, who have been kind enough to provide advice, help and support in answer to some of my posts over the many years.
Goodbye.
I suppose I have to say that it will be a shame to see you go. But I will not miss you for your grasp of maths. Remain lost by about 1,300,000 votes. If you think that that would have been cancelled out by the 15-year plus expat voters who would have bothered to register, and would have bothered to vote, and would have voted for remain, I think you are mistaken.

If I had to guess, I would have thought that they would mostly be Brexiters: why else did they abandon the sinking ship?
Last edited by martyn94 on Sun 26 Jun 2016 11:01, edited 1 time in total.

rainbow
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Stay your contributions are spot on

Post by rainbow » Sat 25 Jun 2016 21:22

Smiley G I hope you stay as your contributions have always been on the mark. However like you I've noted those who think they have the Monopoly of Genius
Best Wishes

Allan
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This is a forum for heaven's sake

Post by Allan » Sun 26 Jun 2016 00:05

How boring this would be without forcefully expressed views. I welcome Grahamc's vitriole and Martyn's cutting remarks. It livens it up and we haven't had a good barney on here for ages.

Most of us would have voted to remain for selfish reasons. I certainly did, but everyone is entitled to an opinion.

To say you are leaving the forum because of forceful posting that you disagree with seems somewhat irrational. I was going to write childish but thought better of it.

Personally, I love a good argument and wouldn't want to see it toned down.

I have read back over the entire thread and I couldn't see any resigning issues

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Gus Morris
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Post by Gus Morris » Sun 26 Jun 2016 08:08

What's done is done. Tomorrow will be interesting, maybe critical, when the financial markets re-open and the political machine gathers pace. If Bojo and Nigel have unleashed the whirlwind their image as heroes may be short lived. The Scottish question alone has the capability to attain nightmare proportions.

Gus Morris

Sus
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Post by Sus » Sun 26 Jun 2016 10:20

I agree with Allan that it is important to be able to discuss all points of view and that also means different styles of putting their arguments forward. Although I have to admit that some contributions make me cringe, more often I was laughing out loud at the cutting remarks from Martyn.
Brexit isn't that much about the EU anymore but for me more about the kind of country we want to be and that will need lots more debate. I feel sorry for the younger generation at potentially loosing out on the opportunity of easily living and working abroad. And the potential prospect of "leadership" from Boris, Trump, Putin and a smattering of Erdogan is enough to spoil my Sunday coffee!

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Kate
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Post by Kate » Sun 26 Jun 2016 10:34

Hi Smiley
I have not been monitoring the forum properly over the past few weeks as I have had some personal stuff going on - or this would not have gone the route.

I too hate the way that some people express themselves - I think it's unnecessary, thoughless and upsetting......and the reason that the forum goes up and down - because every time the forum gets taken over by an opiniionated group of narrow minded men ( and I'm afraid it usually is men), the 'ordinary' members stop visiting.

One person's 'forceful' posting is another persons arrogance. (Although to be fair, the 'vitriolic' posts are in the minimum, but it only takes a couple to change the atmosphere of a thread.)

If you want to give an opinion amidst all those 'forceful' posts, you know that you're going to get taken down, so easier just to keep your mouth shut.

This is not a political site, it's not for you to vent your spleen or rant on the state of the world - but if occasionally you need a bit of a rant, remember that you are not the only ones using this forum and take it off site once it starts getting too serious - that's why we have PMs.

Do hope you're reading this Smiley. I will go back to monitoring every day and quite simply delete any threads that go over the top.

Life is far too short for anger and argument, particularly with people that you don't even know. Please, please please, let's get back to what the forum was created for....asking for advice, helping each other.....

Thanks for reading MY rant. :oops: Have a lovely Sunday.

martyn94
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Post by martyn94 » Sun 26 Jun 2016 10:52

Sus wrote: Brexit isn't that much about the EU anymore but for me more about the kind of country we want to be and that will need lots more debate. I feel sorry for the younger generation at potentially loosing out on the opportunity of easily living and working abroad. And the potential prospect of "leadership" from Boris, Trump, Putin and a smattering of Erdogan is enough to spoil my Sunday coffee!
The strange thing, for me, is that I feel so dismayed even though I no longer have any great deal of skin in the game. On a rough count, I have spent more time in about five other countries in the last few years than I have in the UK. It will be tiresome that the £/€ exchange rate will be worse (for me) than it might otherwise have been, and that I might have to start paying for medical cover. But it will not end my world. Allan is wrong, for me and I imagine most of us, to think that we voted remain for selfish reasons: my vote may have coincided with my interests, but it was not driven by them.

I share Sus's concern for young peoples' lost opportunities. But the real shame is the fact that most of my fellow countrymen have the sense of rage, and betrayal, and despair that evidently they do. That is a huge political failure. And entirely home grown.

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Sue
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Post by Sue » Sun 26 Jun 2016 11:06

Martyn, probably for the first time I can relate to and agree with what you are saying. I feel so sad and despondent, not for myself or indeed my family in the UK but for the hate and lies that have been told and how the country has been ripped apart with friends and neighbours warring with each other. Our own politicians have achieved exactly what the terrorists wanted.
Dylan

martyn94
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Re: This is a forum for heaven's sake

Post by martyn94 » Sun 26 Jun 2016 11:07

Allan wrote:
I have read back over the entire thread and I couldn't see any resigning issues
I found one quite easily which was gratuitously unpleasant: fortunately it was by me, so I could edit it out (though Smiley had already resigned when I wrote it). I can only say in my defence that I have been in a state of shock recently, like most people I have talked to.

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russell
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Post by russell » Sun 26 Jun 2016 11:27

Gus Morris wrote:What's done is done. Tomorrow will be interesting, maybe critical, when the financial markets re-open and the political machine gathers pace. If Bojo and Nigel have unleashed the whirlwind their image as heroes may be short lived.
As most of us are in France, perhaps we should follow the French newspapers lead and refer to him as Bouffon Borris instead of Bojo. As for the other one, the least said the better.

Russell.

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Sue
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Post by Sue » Sun 26 Jun 2016 11:28

The other one is Fromage :lol:
Dylan

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russell
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Post by russell » Sun 26 Jun 2016 11:33

Professor Cipolla's laws go some way to explaining what has happened: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Basic_ ... _Stupidity

Russell

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