UK Referendum on continued British membership of the EU

[Karen]

Thank you

Signed it last night.

Karen

[martyn94]

Thank you

Signed it last night.

Karen

I can guess what it's trying to say, but it doesn't seem to be in English. And doomed anyway, much as I would wish otherwise. The Brexiteers don't like being dictated to by "elites": they would be fit to be tied, and turn out in even greater numbers, if we tried to take away their bone.

Give it a few years of misery, and ineffectual negotiation, and it might be different, but I doubt it. When exactly is BoJo going to say that no deal on offer is as good as the one we had, and who would give a damn if he did? The Brexiters are about lashing out, and I guess they will have plenty to lash out about. Or maybe the midlands will become the workshop of the world for a second time: who knows?

[Smiley G]

It has been 13 months (24:05:15) since I started this thread. Never for one moment did I think it would degenerate into the sort of vitriolic/bilious and totally non-productive rubbish that I see posted.
You all seem to have missed the point, that if this this arrogant government had delivered on another of its manifesto promises, namely the end of the 15 year ExPat voting rule, then the likelihood is that Remain would have won the day.
I have decided to quit the forum as I no longer wish to be associated with some of the totally inflammatory and accusory comments. In signing off for the last time, I would like to thank Kate & Sue for all their hard work and those of you, you know who you are, who have been kind enough to provide advice, help and support in answer to some of my posts over the many years.
Goodbye.

[martyn94]

It has been 13 months (24:05:15) since I started this thread. Never for one moment did I think it would degenerate into the sort of vitriolic/bilious and totally non-productive rubbish that I see posted.
You all seem to have missed the point, that if this this arrogant government had delivered on another of its manifesto promises, namely the end of the 15 year ExPat voting rule, then the likelihood is that Remain would have won the day.
I have decided to quit the forum as I no longer wish to be associated with some of the totally inflammatory and accusory comments. In signing off for the last time, I would like to thank Kate & Sue for all their hard work and those of you, you know who you are, who have been kind enough to provide advice, help and support in answer to some of my posts over the many years.
Goodbye.

I suppose I have to say that it will be a shame to see you go. But I will not miss you for your grasp of maths. Remain lost by about 1,300,000 votes. If you think that that would have been cancelled out by the 15-year plus expat voters who would have bothered to register, and would have bothered to vote, and would have voted for remain, I think you are mistaken.

If I had to guess, I would have thought that they would mostly be Brexiters: why else did they abandon the sinking ship?

[rainbow]

Smiley G I hope you stay as your contributions have always been on the mark. However like you I've noted those who think they have the Monopoly of Genius

[Allan]

How boring this would be without forcefully expressed views. I welcome Grahamc's vitriole and Martyn's cutting remarks. It livens it up and we haven't had a good barney on here for ages.

Most of us would have voted to remain for selfish reasons. I certainly did, but everyone is entitled to an opinion.

To say you are leaving the forum because of forceful posting that you disagree with seems somewhat irrational. I was going to write childish but thought better of it.

Personally, I love a good argument and wouldn't want to see it toned down.

I have read back over the entire thread and I couldn't see any resigning issues

[Gus Morris]

What's done is done. Tomorrow will be interesting, maybe critical, when the financial markets re-open and the political machine gathers pace. If Bojo and Nigel have unleashed the whirlwind their image as heroes may be short lived. The Scottish question alone has the capability to attain nightmare proportions.

Gus Morris

[Sus]

I agree with Allan that it is important to be able to discuss all points of view and that also means different styles of putting their arguments forward. Although I have to admit that some contributions make me cringe, more often I was laughing out loud at the cutting remarks from Martyn.
Brexit isn't that much about the EU anymore but for me more about the kind of country we want to be and that will need lots more debate. I feel sorry for the younger generation at potentially loosing out on the opportunity of easily living and working abroad. And the potential prospect of "leadership" from Boris, Trump, Putin and a smattering of Erdogan is enough to spoil my Sunday coffee!

[Kate]

Hi Smiley
I have not been monitoring the forum properly over the past few weeks as I have had some personal stuff going on - or this would not have gone the route.

I too hate the way that some people express themselves - I think it's unnecessary, thoughless and upsetting......and the reason that the forum goes up and down - because every time the forum gets taken over by an opiniionated group of narrow minded men ( and I'm afraid it usually is men), the 'ordinary' members stop visiting.

One person's 'forceful' posting is another persons arrogance. (Although to be fair, the 'vitriolic' posts are in the minimum, but it only takes a couple to change the atmosphere of a thread.)

If you want to give an opinion amidst all those 'forceful' posts, you know that you're going to get taken down, so easier just to keep your mouth shut.

This is not a political site, it's not for you to vent your spleen or rant on the state of the world - but if occasionally you need a bit of a rant, remember that you are not the only ones using this forum and take it off site once it starts getting too serious - that's why we have PMs.

Do hope you're reading this Smiley. I will go back to monitoring every day and quite simply delete any threads that go over the top.

Life is far too short for anger and argument, particularly with people that you don't even know. Please, please please, let's get back to what the forum was created for....asking for advice, helping each other.....

Thanks for reading MY rant. Have a lovely Sunday.

[martyn94]

Brexit isn't that much about the EU anymore but for me more about the kind of country we want to be and that will need lots more debate. I feel sorry for the younger generation at potentially loosing out on the opportunity of easily living and working abroad. And the potential prospect of "leadership" from Boris, Trump, Putin and a smattering of Erdogan is enough to spoil my Sunday coffee!

The strange thing, for me, is that I feel so dismayed even though I no longer have any great deal of skin in the game. On a rough count, I have spent more time in about five other countries in the last few years than I have in the UK. It will be tiresome that the £/€ exchange rate will be worse (for me) than it might otherwise have been, and that I might have to start paying for medical cover. But it will not end my world. Allan is wrong, for me and I imagine most of us, to think that we voted remain for selfish reasons: my vote may have coincided with my interests, but it was not driven by them.

I share Sus's concern for young peoples' lost opportunities. But the real shame is the fact that most of my fellow countrymen have the sense of rage, and betrayal, and despair that evidently they do. That is a huge political failure. And entirely home grown.

[Sue]

Martyn, probably for the first time I can relate to and agree with what you are saying. I feel so sad and despondent, not for myself or indeed my family in the UK but for the hate and lies that have been told and how the country has been ripped apart with friends and neighbours warring with each other. Our own politicians have achieved exactly what the terrorists wanted.

[martyn94]

I have read back over the entire thread and I couldn't see any resigning issues

I found one quite easily which was gratuitously unpleasant: fortunately it was by me, so I could edit it out (though Smiley had already resigned when I wrote it). I can only say in my defence that I have been in a state of shock recently, like most people I have talked to.

[russell]

What's done is done. Tomorrow will be interesting, maybe critical, when the financial markets re-open and the political machine gathers pace. If Bojo and Nigel have unleashed the whirlwind their image as heroes may be short lived.

As most of us are in France, perhaps we should follow the French newspapers lead and refer to him as Bouffon Borris instead of Bojo. As for the other one, the least said the better.

Russell.

[Sue]

The other one is Fromage

[russell]

Professor Cipolla's laws go some way to explaining what has happened: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Basic_ ... _Stupidity

Russell

[russell]

The other one is Fromage

Yes, a rather bitter one

Russell

[opas]

A simple question.

Did everyone in your household vote the same way?

Ours didn't, and we still share a bed!

[russell]

No, our cats didn't vote at all so we have cut their rations by 10% like our pensions

Russell

[martyn94]

A simple question.

Did everyone in your household vote the same way?

Ours didn't, and we still share a bed!

Vive la différence. And long may it continue.

But I have to say that I cleave to Bill Shankly's view: not a matter of life and death, but much more serious than that. If I never hear any more about the sainted art 50, it won't be too soon, but I fear I will be disappointed.

[jethro]

Today's Torygraph has a piece which quotes Jean-Claude Juncker as saying that expats will now lose their pensions and health care. Even if this were true,we are numerous enough and bright enough to tie them up in litigation for eternity. But it shows something of the arrogance of these people that such a claim can be made without a single shred of proof or justification.

[martyn94]

Today's Torygraph has a piece which quotes Jean-Claude Juncker as saying that expats will now lose their pensions and health care. Even if this were true,we are numerous enough and bright enough to tie them up in litigation for eternity. But it they shows something of the arrogance of these people that such a claim can be made without a single shred of proof or justification.

I was not sufficiently curious actually to pay money for the Telegraph, so I'll have to take your word for what he was said to have said. I don't know about pensions, but in relation to health care what you quote seems entirely accurate, and I don't see how any amount of litigation could change it. Though if we're lucky some successor arrangement might be negotiated.

Not that I am any fan of Juncker: I used to sit on EU working parties with him when he was less grand, and he made my flesh creep. But that is an occupational hazard if you have to defend Luxemburg.

[russell]

I was not sufficiently curious actually to pay money for the Telegraph, so I'll have to take your word for what he was said to have said. I don't know about pensions, but in relation to health care what you quote seems entirely accurate, and I don't see how any amount of litigation could change it. Though if we're lucky some successor arrangement might be negotiated.

I don't think we should rely on luck. Perhaps someone with political contacts could be persuaded to do some lobbying on behalf of the 1.26 million British ex pats living in the EU?
Any ideas?

There are about 3 million EU ex pats living in the UK so possibly some reciprocal arrangement can be made.

Russell.

[Sus]

That would be the same paper that detected a "Labour coup to block Brexit". Labour who?

[martyn94]

There are about 3 million EU ex pats living in the UK so possibly some reciprocal arrangement can be made.

Russell.

It's not really about reciprocity, as I understand it, at least for over-65s: the UK gets billed for our care, and the question is essentially a UK domestic one: will they be prepared to go on paying? Since the arrangements apply to the EEA, and not just to the EU, there may be grounds for hope, but I am not holding my breath.