Grammar Gurus part 2

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 09:15

To print out and keep ....

and I would add

Should've = Should have
Would've = Would have

Should of = 0
Would of = 0

Post by **Kate** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 09:19

blackduff · Post by **blackduff** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 10:59

Kate wrote:

Kate
Were your

supposed to be Should have or Would have or maybe Could have.

Grammar is getting complicated.

Blackduff

russell · Post by **russell** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 11:07

omg it's andaz

Russell.

tia · Post by **tia** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 12:20

always wondered , what is the difference between saying can I have and may I have?

Robert Ferrieux · Post by **Robert Ferrieux** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 12:32

Pithy explanation:
When he was a student in London, Robert wanted to visit the British Museum. It was just before closing time and Rob asked the doorkeeper "Can I go in?"
The doorkeeper replied scornfully, "You can but you may not"..

tia · Post by **tia** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 12:33

thanks helen.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 12:56

'Can I' means 'am I able'
'may I' means 'am I permitted'

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 14:17

I always thought can I was the impolite way of asking for something and may I the polite way. A bit like I want or I would like!

Owens88 · Post by **Owens88** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 23:02

I do not really accept 'I would like' as meaningful (and yes I do know the underlying grammar). It always reminds me of half-heartedness e.g. 'planning to get engaged'.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 23:31

Owens88 wrote:I do not really accept 'I would like' as meaningful (and yes I do know the underlying grammar). It always reminds me of half-heartedness e.g. 'planning to get engaged'.

You might not accept it as meaninful but you are out of step with most of the english speaking world that regards it as a polite form of 'I want'.

What's wrong with 'planning to get engaged'? A lot of people regard getting engaged as being an event to celebrate not simply a change of status.

Owens88 · Post by **Owens88** » Wed 26 Jun 2013 23:48

Allan I was being playful. But for the record I love it that you are a stickler for grammar to correct me on one thing then accept a travesty of language to correct me on another.
But the world is a big place and there is plenty of room for us all.

Pearsonb · Post by **Pearsonb** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 07:50

Can I is a less formal way of asking for permission than May I.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/can-or-may

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 08:19

Pearsonb wrote:Can I is a less formal way of asking for permission than May I.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/can-or-may

But only in the context of asking permission.

Take the 2 questions

Can he speak French? May he speak French?
They have entirely different meanings.

It's interesting, I found several online dictionaries with articles on this subject, they all contradicted the view expressed in the one you quoted. It just goes to show that language is constantly evolving and the rules are open to interpretation. Fortunately we all understand the question, whether can or may is used.

Most people regard the Oxford English Dictionary (not the Oxford Dictionary) as the definitive reference. - anyone got a copy?

Pearsonb · Post by **Pearsonb** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 15:35

Oxford Dictionaries and OED are the same thing

Owens88 · Post by **Owens88** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 16:54

http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/115287

I confess that I did not believe pearsonb, sorry. However...

'... 4. Expressing ability or power; be able, can. Obs. ....'

Oh, if I told them, my kids would wish that they had known that when their assistant headmistress was correcting them.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 16:58

Pearsonb wrote:Oxford Dictionaries and OED are the same thing

Actually they are not :-

This site (www.oxforddictionaries.com) is not the Oxford English Dictionary (OED). You’ll find the OED at www.oed.com. You’ll need a subscription to use the OED fully. You may be able to use the OED at home through your local public library: ask your librarian for information.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/the ... dictionary

Pearsonb · Post by **Pearsonb** » Thu 27 Jun 2013 20:27

You ate splitting hairs. They are both part of the OUP group. The articles in that site are written by OED staff.

But who cares? It is only a forum. I will always appreciate the help you have given me in the geek forum.

Pearson

russell · Post by **russell** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 11:11

O.K. How about "je veux" vs. "je voudrais"?

Russell.

Owens88 · Post by **Owens88** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 12:51

Russell

Again I remain nonplussed. I believe that Je voudrais is the conditional 'I would like' and I am told it is used as the polite way of saying 'gimme'.
I have just never heard it used by the French.

Another way of regarding the conditional is the 'hypothetical future' hence my earlier playfulness saying that 'I would like' is half-hearted.

Cheers

Robert Ferrieux · Post by **Robert Ferrieux** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 13:37

"Je voudrais t'embrasser mais tu as un herpès aux lèvres..........."

"I 'd like to kiss you but you've got a cold sore." (so presumably I shall not...in fact I definitely WILL not!"

"Je veux t'embrasser"....I wanna kiss your hot lips PDQ & ASAP

Helen

Owens88 · Post by **Owens88** » Fri 28 Jun 2013 18:37

Helen
Thanks, yes that is the conditional which I understand.
I just don't see that it is more 'polite' to use the conditional, it is a different sense.

J

Robert Ferrieux · Post by **Robert Ferrieux** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 03:10

[quote="Pearsonb"]Can I is a less formal way of asking for permission than May I.

I disagree.
"Can I swim in your pool?" means "Do I know how to/ Am I capable swim..." (in your pool or elsewhere)
"May I swim in your pool?" - "Do I have your permission to swim in your pool?"

See my post on page1. Robert wanted to go into the British Museum near closing time, & he asked the doorkeeper "Can I go in?" The doorkeeper answered "You can....." (i.e. the door is still open & you're physically capable of walking in ) "but you may not" (i.e. I make the rules here and I'm not going to let you in ).

Helen

carol sheridan · Post by **carol sheridan** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 08:14

I am a former teacher of English but I try not to be pedantic and to accept that language evolves. I used to teach my pupils the usual mantra - 'Can I?' means 'Am I capable?' and 'May I?' means 'Am I permitted', but I now accept that they are interchangeable.
And when asked 'Who is it?' in answer to my knock, I say 'It's me' although I know the verb 'to be' takes a nominative complement.

Pearsonb · Post by **Pearsonb** » Sat 29 Jun 2013 14:42

I've already quoted the Oxford dictionary. Some people argue that Webster's is more authorative. This is what is written there.

Can and may are most frequently interchangeable in senses denoting possibility; because the possibility of one's doing something may depend on another's acquiescence, they have also become interchangeable in the sense denoting permission. The use of can to ask or grant permission has been common since the 19th century and is well established, although some commentators feel may is more appropriate in formal contexts. May is relatively rare in negative constructions (mayn't is not common); cannot and can't are usual in such contexts.

opas · Post by **opas** » Sat 16 Nov 2013 14:49

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lants.html

That headline, I am doubting myself now, should it read ' their poisonous' or they're poisonous?

On first reading the headline it did not make sense......

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sat 16 Nov 2013 15:47

opas wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lants.html

That headline, I am doubting myself now, should it read ' their poisonous' or they're poisonous?

On first reading the headline it did not make sense......

I don't understand your confusion, the headline is perfectly correct as it is.

It couldn't possible be their as that would denote possession.

opas · Post by **opas** » Sat 16 Nov 2013 16:23

That is exactly my confusion.

Should it read that children re afraid of veg in case their poisonous.. as the daily mail have written.....I do not think it should.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sat 16 Nov 2013 16:43

opas wrote:That is exactly my confusion.

Should it read that children re afraid of veg in case their poisonous.. as the daily mail have written.....I do not think it should.

Sorry I still don't get the confusion.

It reads that Children do not eat their greens (greens belonging to the children) because they (the children) are genetically programmed to avoid plants in case they (the plants) are poisonous

opas · Post by **opas** » Sat 16 Nov 2013 18:49

Ah, now it reads correctly!

When I posted this it actually said.......are genetically programmed to avoid plants in case their poisonous..

So the paper have obviously corrected themselves.

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Grammar Gurus part 2

Grammar Gurus part 2