Kodi/Filmon not working

[martyn94]

Sorry Allan just quoting the words of the Advocate General of the European Union. I am sure you can pass this vital information over to him.

As for the internet service, i was a representative of travel WiFi in Paris. www.travel-wifi.com
Your service was supplied by them and all cutomer relations and service issues are with them as is the contract. You knew this as you have been in contact with M. Benoit Marie the MD of the company. I simply introduced you to the service for which they where supposed to pay me a small commision. Any service issues should therefore and as you have already done, be taken up with them directly, you know this as they have notified me you have had many conversations directly with the team.
So why bring it up? or just trying to score a cheap hit on me personally.

There are others in the PO who have this contract with them and are receiving a great service.

The services that scrape Sky channels and Movies from the internet then resell are the "OTT Over the top" services in question. That is what is being discussed above. If the definitions are wrong take it up with the man from the EU that quotes it.

If you have an opinion of the Advocate General to point to, you can perfectly easily do it: they are on line. They are usually followed by the Court, but not always.

For myself, I find that "it might not be legal, but you probably won't get nicked" is less than satisfying, but I'm probably over-scrupulous.

[russell]

First, there is no point in arguing over the definition of "OTT". There is no official definition. The term was first coined by the big American cable TV companies (MSOs) to describe services they could provide which were not delivered by the conventional means over their cables. It included, but not exclusively, internet delivery. At that time cable TV companies didn't (were not allowed to) deliver internet.

Secondly, There is no such person as the Advocate General in the EU. There are eleven of them and they can all have different opinions. More recently than the one Boomshanka refers to Advocate General Campos Sanchez_Bordona issued advice that not only selling devices set up to watch pirated media is illegal but using them is also illegal. We have to wait for the EU court's ruling which is expected early this year.

Russell

[Allan]

I agree Russell, there is no point in arguing over definitions and you are right, there is no official definition for OTT services, but then again there is probably no 'official' definition of an aeroplane but we all know what one is.

If you google 'define OTT service' you will find umpteen definitions all saying pretty well the same thing. I just get irritated by boomshanka's preponderance to reinvent definitions as well as history.

The whole debate on these services seems bizarre to me. Why would anybody think that reselling someone else's copyright service without paying them, or watching without paying them, or selling the means for someone else to watch without paying can be right in any sense, legally or morally.

[martyn94]

I agree Russell, there is no point in arguing over definitions and you are right, there is no official definition for OTT services, but then again there is probably no 'official' definition of an aeroplane but we all know what one is.

If you google 'define OTT service' you will find umpteen definitions all saying pretty well the same thing. I just get irritated by boomshanka's preponderance to reinvent definitions as well as history.

The whole debate on these services seems bizarre to me. Why would anybody think that reselling someone else's copyright service without paying them, or watching without paying them, or selling the means for someone else to watch without paying can be right in any sense, legally or morally.

Well, yes. But I guess it's easy to persuade yourself that it's a victimless crime to tap a stream, or even a civil right. After all, I did pay my licence fee, a few years ago.

[montgolfiere]

just a question....is is more or less 'legal' to watch filmon or another free uk tv streaming service, iplayer etc. or watch via the Satellite? (i am not talking about pay for rebroadcast services)

[martyn94]

just a question....is is more or less 'legal' to watch filmon or another free uk tv streaming service, iplayer etc. or watch via the Satellite? (i am not talking about pay for rebroadcast services)

I don't understand more or less legal. It is or it isn't, though it may, of course, involve criminal or civil liability or both. And a greater or less chance of getting nicked.

The BBC terms and conditions are here

http://www.bbc.com/usingthebbc/terms/terms-of-use/

I've never seen anything in plainer English, though I imagine it has still been lawyered to death.

[montgolfiere]

looks ok here as it suggests we just need a local licence If you’re outside these areas you need to check if your country has its own TV licensing scheme. and there doesn't seem to be much mention of Satellite.

[Allan]

just a question....is is more or less 'legal' to watch filmon or another free uk tv streaming service, iplayer etc. or watch via the Satellite? (i am not talking about pay for rebroadcast services)

I don't understand more or less legal. It is or it isn't, though it may, of course, involve criminal or civil liability or both. And a greater or less chance of getting nicked.

The BBC terms and conditions are here

http://www.bbc.com/usingthebbc/terms/terms-of-use/

I've never seen anything in plainer English, though I imagine it has still been lawyered to death.

As I read it, these terms apply to BBC's digital services, I.e iPlayer, website etc, not their broadcast services received by satellite

[russell]

As I read it, these terms apply to BBC's digital services, I.e iPlayer, website etc, not their broadcast services received by satellite

. . . nor, I guess, to signals received by a terrestrial antenna. So, is it legitimate for those residents of the low countries and northern France who can receive signals across the Channel to watch BBC programs?

How about receiving in the UK and using Slingbox to relay it over here?

Then how about Freeview and TVPlayer who put UK free to air programs on the internet legitimately. They can be received over here with the use of a VPN.

Filmon is a difficult one. There have been times, such as during the Olympics, when certain channels were removed at the request of the copyright holders. That implies that they do have a legitimate arrangement with them.

Clearly using something like Icefilms to stream or download pirate copies of films is in breach of copyright if not of criminal law but with all these free to air services available it is very difficult to know what is allowed. I don't envy the EU Court Judges their task!

Russell.

[montgolfiere]

bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted rather springs to mind.....
Maybe they should just set up a system that if you pay £100 a year you can watch what you like and disrtibute the money to the content rights holders.on some sort of %%% basis... I'd be happy to pay.... as i would the UK TV licence if they restored the FTA Satellite signal to 80cm dish levels

[Webdoc]

I think just because one specific mechanism to watch the BBC hasn't precisely been stated as illegal doesn't mean that it's therefore legal. BBC content is paid for by the licence fee, as are the servers that distribute the programmes via iplayer. The BBC clearly doesn't want it's resources spent entertaining non-licence-payers and in some cases only has the rights to broadcast bought-in content to the UK.

The reason that the new Astra satellites have a smaller broadcast footprint (and are therefore almost impossible to receive in the PO) is not because Sky was just being awkward; it was demanded by the content-owners.

So such debates about legal/illegal are just subjective. I guess we all act illegally sometimes - from pinching a stamp from work, leaving 10 minutes early, or knowingly doing 125km/hr on the motorway. One just has to work out at what level one is comfortable with. And one's position on this spectrum may be strongly influenced if one is trying to make a living selling TV kit to ex-pats in France.

[russell]

So such debates about legal/illegal are just subjective. I guess we all act illegally sometimes - from pinching a stamp from work, leaving 10 minutes early, or knowingly doing 125km/hr on the motorway.

Please note that the 130 km/h limit on the motorway is the maximum not the minimum so 125 is quite legal

Russell.

[Kate]

Speaking from a non techno point of view, ie as someone who really doesn't understand or care why and how the telly gets to me as long as it does get to me, ex pats have been watching telly 'illegally' for years, by whatever means the latest new kid in town has offered. Various people get to make money out of it, some lots, but if they're providing a service we want, and are prepared to take responsibility for the legality or non legality of it, then personally, I don't have a problem with it!

[Allan]

Speaking from a non techno point of view, ie as someone who really doesn't understand or care why and how the telly gets to me as long as it does get to me, ex pats have been watching telly 'illegally' for years, by whatever means the latest new kid in town has offered. Various people get to make money out of it, some lots, but if they're providing a service we want, and are prepared to take responsibility for the legality or non legality of it, then personally, I don't have a problem with it!

Kate

Ex Pats have not been watching illegally for years. Free to air television is just that, it is free to anyone with the means to receive it.

A television licence in the UK is required to watch broadcasts IN THE UK, but we are in France and France has its own TV licence laws.

The problem started when the satellite footprint changed and the Free to Air broadcasts became harder to receive.

People that are receiving Filmon are breaking no laws and those watching iPlayer ITV player are not doing so illegally, they are simply breaking the terms and conditions of the broadcaster. The Terms and conditions that Martyn posted from the BBC state clearly that if you are in breach of them then their remedy is to suspend your account with them. There is no criminal aspect to it.

What is criminal is the pirating of paid for content, such as Sky's premium channels. This is a criminal act on the part of the company offering the service and the person receiving it. If you pay money for something stolen that is criminally and morally wrong.

If someone offered you 50€ notes at 30€ each then I don't think a defence of ' he said he would take responsibility for their legality or non-legality' would hold water - what's different?.

Most of the companies offering these systems are buying them ultimately from a few sources, mostly in Eastern Europe and operated by criminals.

[Webdoc]

Five arrests in 'fully loaded' Kodi streaming box raids:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38906561

Fact said it had co-ordinated its "day of action" on behalf of the Premier League and subscription television providers BT, Sky and Virgin Media.

So the Content Owners are flexing their muscles.

[Kate]

I understand what you're saying Allan.....but for something like telly, my attitude is 'I'm all right Jack'. It's working for me and that's as far as I want to look.
If it was money laundering or people trafficking, then of course that would be different.......but until somebody can prove to me that my subscription IS funding something dangerous, immoral, harmful, I will continue to enjoy Homeland!!

[Boomshanka]

Five arrests in 'fully loaded' Kodi streaming box raids:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38906561

Fact said it had co-ordinated its "day of action" on behalf of the Premier League and subscription television providers BT, Sky and Virgin Media.

So the Content Owners are flexing their muscles.

See i told you earlier in this thread that selling "Fully Loaded Kodi" boxes was not legal (test case in May to confirm this for UK law) these are the one's mostly found on Ebay!!

Kate - you don't need the subscription at all - you get more without a subscription

[Webdoc]

I don't really want to prolong the debate on this because, as I've already said, it's an individual's decision about how far they are prepared to go bending or breaking the rules.

But the point here is not really that a particular form of hardware is illegal, it's that the copyright owners of the media (Sky, BT et.) disapprove of people watching their content without paying - and the Law is on their side.

[martyn94]

I don't really want to prolong the debate on this because, as I've already said, it's an individual's decision about how far they are prepared to go bending or breaking the rules.

But the point here is not really that a particular form of hardware is illegal, it's that the copyright owners of the media (Sky, BT et.) disapprove of people watching their content without paying - and the Law is on their side.

So you say they can't watch "Homeland"? Political correctness run mad! So bad!!

[Boomshanka]

https://torrentfreak.com/spanish-police ... ss-170210/

As i said earlier about the MAG Box with subscription sellers - This happened in September but has only been released. No refunds for the customers.

[Boomshanka]

For all those streaming UKTV then this was officially published by FACT Federation Against Copyright Theft in the UK

FACT claims that, "if you are accessing premium pay-for content, like Sky, BT Sport and Virgin Media, and you do not have a subscription with an official provider then this is unlawful access".

However, it is unclear exactly what law you would be breaking.

If you were to download an illegally copied file, that would constitute copyright infringement. However, when you stream something online, the file is stored only temporarily on your computer - and temporary copies are exempt from copyright laws.

In a landmark ruling i 2014, the Court of Justice of the European Union ruled that internet users who look at copyrighted material online aren't breaking the law by doing so, citing Article 5.1 of the EU Copyright Directive.

It stated that copies of copyrighted material that appear "on the users computer screen" and "in the internet 'cache' of that computer's hard disk" are "temporary" and "may therefore be made without the authorisation of the copyright holders".

That should clear up the streaming issue - this is why they are persuing sellers of subscriptions for TV like webtv4me - uktvfrance - expatvision etc etc. as they are profiting from these sources unlawfully.

End user streaming will not get penalised by the law.

[Gus Morris]

I want to watch/download the UK TV that is available via Freeview. I am quite prepared to pay a resonable sum to do so. Let us say the equivalent of the UK licence fee. While Britain remained in the EU there was a possibilty that this might happen one day.

So now I pay a small sum to a US company who make it possible. Not the BBC, ITV, Ch4, Ch5 etc.

Absolute madness and does not make commercial sense! On the other hand I can listen to the radio quite legally!

Gus

[martyn94]

I want to watch/download the UK TV that is available via Freeview. I am quite prepared to pay a resonable sum to do so. Let us say the equivalent of the UK licence fee. While Britain remained in the EU there was a possibilty that this might happen one day.

So now I pay a small sum to a US company who make it possible. Not the BBC, ITV, Ch4, Ch5 etc.

Absolute madness and does not make commercial sense! On the other hand I can listen to the radio quite legally!

Gus

I would be prepared to do that too. But Netflix (I assume you are referring to them) are not just selling to Brit expats but to the whole French market. And they have the advantage of actually owning the IP they are trying to sell. I doubt that it would make much commercial sense for the BBC (etc) to turn backwards somersaults to serve UK expats, and it would be political poison, back in the UK, to be seen spending time and money on it.

I think we have to get our heads round the fact that we are nobody's priority: if I can get to stay here without filling in too many forms, and ideally keep my health cover, the telly can go hang.

And I'd also go easy on the exclamation marks unless I were trying to channel Donald Trump.

[Webdoc]

BBC iPlayer is going to expand -

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/ ... fing-plans

- and I imagine that will include a subscription service for overseas users.

Sky is launching an internet-only service too (i.e. no dish required) which might also permit non-UK residents to subscribe legally.

These content-providers want your money so I'm sure they'll find a way to enable people to subscribe legally. There's clearly a market and they'll want to tap into it.

[rainbow]

I still pay my License in uk Also subscribe to B T but when in France can't get either.

[martyn94]

BBC iPlayer is going to expand -

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/ ... fing-plans

- and I imagine that will include a subscription service for overseas users.

You may be right, but I don't see how you got that from the story. It was about making iplayer the best online service "in the UK", and about closing down access to it by using a sign-in.

[martyn94]

BBC iPlayer is going to expand -

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/ ... fing-plans

- and I imagine that will include a subscription service for overseas users.

You may be right, but I don't see how you got that from the story. It was about making iplayer the best online service "in the UK", and about closing down access to it by using a sign-in.

[Webdoc]

Admittedly it's an assumption but the BBC already supplement their falling income by selling content abroad via their "commercial arm" BBC Worldwide. So if they're going to invest heavily in expanding their on-line content they would be bonkers not to try and monetise it.

I guess the signing-in part is the beginnings of having a free account if you're a UK Licence Fee payer and the option of introducing a subscription service for viewers worldwide.

I don't think I'm being fanciful - it has to come.

[Helen]

This article outlines recent agreement within the EU - tho' heaven knows how Brexit will impact on the UK's position going forward

http://www.digitaltveurope.net/657851/e ... rtability/

Copyright and obligations to rights' owners can be incredibly complex (says she who once had to clear a piece of classical music for streaming globally. It was out of copyright in the UK and most other countries - but not all. Incredibly, in France, years of military service can be added to the copyright window.)

But what really bugs me about this whole discussion is that broadcasters spend many, many millions acquiring and creating content for their channels - but how many of the streaming services being promoted to expats pay anything for the content they happily exploit?

[Webdoc]

http://www.whatsontv.co.uk/news/let-it- ... ne-450876/

Are you sure that's the right link ?!?!