180cm Satellite Dishes South of Perpignan

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » Sun 02 Mar 2014 09:56

It seems to me that many of us ( inc me ) are waiting for someone else to take the plunge and spend a not in considerable sum on buying a 180cm dish ( which seems to be the recommended size for S of Perps) have it fitted and hope it works.

Having given the problem some thought perhaps some may wish to join a scheme to go down this route without such a high risk. If we could create a "fighting fund" of say 2000€ this should well cover advice supply and installation etc of high quality kit and an expert installer.

What I suggest is that we would need 20 people who want such a set up and have space etc to install the system. They would all put 100€ into the fighting fund creating 2000€. Then a raffle takes place for the "winner" who will have the system installed at their home after quotes from installers have been obtained. If the system does not work then that would be a shame but all that has been lost is 100€ ( probably less) per member of the group. If it does work then winner would re instate the value of the fighting back to 2000€ and the money returned to the members who can then have their own systems installed. From the installers point of view 20 new jobs could be attractive to provide a competitive price.

Any thoughts...any obvious problems ( or indeed not so obvious)...anyone interested ?

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Sun 02 Mar 2014 11:46

The problem with this is that we are trying to take into account an expected 'Drop' in the Signal that is expected to take place between April and September.
The next problem is actually sourcing a suitable Dish, as the extra 'Gain' expected between a Gilbertini 150 and most makes of 180 is pretty small. (unfortunately Gilbertini dont make a 180cm!!)
My own view is actually to wait a couple of Months so we can actually Measure the Change in Signal and then Decide the size of Dish required in the region to the South of Perpignan.
The comparison between 2f and 2e COULD actually mean that a 150cm. may suffice in this region. At the moment 2e is generally 5 - 10% better than 2f and if this continues through any 'Lows' we might be able to revise our recommended Dish Size.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sun 02 Mar 2014 14:25

montgolfiere wrote:The problem with this is that we are trying to take into account an expected 'Drop' in the Signal that is expected to take place between April and September.
The next problem is actually sourcing a suitable Dish, as the extra 'Gain' expected between a Gilbertini 150 and most makes of 180 is pretty small. (unfortunately Gilbertini dont make a 180cm!!)
My own view is actually to wait a couple of Months so we can actually Measure the Change in Signal and then Decide the size of Dish required in the region to the South of Perpignan.
The comparison between 2f and 2e COULD actually mean that a 150cm. may suffice in this region. At the moment 2e is generally 5 - 10% better than 2f and if this continues through any 'Lows' we might be able to revise our recommended Dish Size.

Why would anyone want to go to all the trouble of installing a dish capable of receiving 2e but not capable of receiving 2f.

I don't know where you get your 'information' from but the theoretical gain of a 1.8m dish is 1.44 times that of a 1.5m manufacturing differences might not bear that out in practice but there is no way that a 1.5 Gibertini (there is no L in it) would even start to compare with a decent 1.8m.

Simply because last year the signal was low at various times, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the same will happen this year but I know that my 1.5m barely coped during the lows so I doubt that a 1.5 would be consistently successful south of Perpignan.

Personally, I think it is an excellent idea but I would implement it differently. A 1.8m dish is more of a construction project than an electronics one. It involves a hole in the ground, a cubic meter of concrete and a polar mount. After that it's easy to mount a dish and align it. In your place, I would share out the work/cost of that and put the onus onto a satellite installer to fit a dish that works.

If you need any technical drawings of how to mount a dish then send me a pm with a proper email address

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » Sun 02 Mar 2014 15:00

Allan..thanks for your input.....any plans and technical advice would be appreciated...will email you my email address......my feeling is at this stage perhaps putting the job out to an installer who could project manage the whole job might but a better option and lead to the highest chance of sucess

Merisin · Post by **Merisin** » Sun 02 Mar 2014 15:53

My husband's advice is sit tight and spend nothing. Or very little! He subscribed to a VPN, we have a reliable internet connection, a computer linked direct to the TV and we seem to be able to see all the programmes that interest us. Now that he has it sorted, picture quality is no longer an issue.

Mary

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » Sun 02 Mar 2014 16:26

Mary

We are presently running our TV via VPN...so far so good but there is a bit of buffering especially in the evening. The reason for my proposed fighting fund plan is to try and push forward without huge expense and risk if the dish doesn't work

russell · Post by **russell** » Sun 02 Mar 2014 16:46

montgolfiere wrote:At the moment 2e is generally 5 - 10% better than 2f and if this continues through any 'Lows' we might be able to revise our recommended Dish Size.

The difference between a 1.8 and a 1.5 (assuming similar efficiency) is, as Allan said, 1.44 times the power. This corresponds to 1.6 dB which doesn't seem to be much but can be significant in marginal conditions. Can any of the satellite installers measure the signal variations they are seeing properly ie, in dB? Figures such as 10% signal quality are meaningless and can't be related directly to dish size.

Russell.

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Sun 02 Mar 2014 16:51

"Why would anyone want to go to all the trouble of installing a dish capable of receiving 2e but not capable of receiving 2f.
Simply because last year the signal was low at various times, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the same will happen this year"

My experience has been that not that many people were that bothered by the lack of Channels caused by 2f's Launch in Dec 2014. Therefore if they got back their 2e Channels at maybe half the cost (of installing a 180 Dish ) they might consider that.

There is every indication that the Signal from 2e may well drop in the same way as 2f dropped last 'April - September'....or at least that is the feeling of 3 of the local installers (and BTW. includes the chap who installed Alan's 150!!).

My only wish is that no one wastes their money by either installing a too small or indeed a too large Dish and i feel that by waiting just a few more months the CORRECT Dish Size can be confirmed!!

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sun 02 Mar 2014 17:10

montgolfiere wrote:"Why would anyone want to go to all the trouble of installing a dish capable of receiving 2e but not capable of receiving 2f.
Simply because last year the signal was low at various times, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the same will happen this year"

My experience has been that not that many people were that bothered by the lack of Channels caused by 2f's Launch in Dec 2014. Therefore if they got back their 2e Channels at maybe half the cost (of installing a 180 Dish ) they might consider that.

There is every indication that the Signal from 2e may well drop in the same way as 2f dropped last 'April - September'....or at least that is the feeling of 3 of the local installers (and BTW. includes the chap who installed Alan's 150!!).

My only wish is that no one wastes their money by either installing a too small or indeed a too large Dish and i feel that by waiting just a few more months the CORRECT Dish Size will be indicated.

People weren't bothered about 2f because they could watch the SD versions of ITV and Channel 4 and the HD versions of channel 5 but I don't think people would want to make the necessary investment and be excluded from HD channels like ITV HD and Channel 4 HD

What indications are you referring to? I haven't seen anything from SES. Of course if the signal drops on 2f it is highly likely that the same will happen on 2e after all, the atmospherics, solar winds and satellite designs will all be pretty much the same but with respect to all local satellite installers, satellite positioning and signal strength IS rocket science and it would take a lot more than their feelings to be a certainty. I know of nothing that would make the reductions seasonal unless of course SES are reducing the power during the period of fine summer weather which seems pretty doubtful.

Out of interest, when taking your comparative 2e and 2f readings which centre of box did you use?

Tatra Man · Post by **Tatra Man** » Fri 18 Apr 2014 07:41

I'm not actually bothered by a drop between April and September as I ski so am only down here from December to April but I am bothered by cost and I have tried a Gibertini 125 in 66800 Saillagouse and got a sniff of BBC1 Oxford and Channel 5 in February and again in April. The rest of the chain - which people sadly forget to include as dish size alone isn't everything - is an Inverto Black Ultra feeding a Panasonic FreeSat HD TV, a Panasonic FreeSat HD Blu-Ray recorder and an ancient Pace $ky box.

I do believe I'm more affected by the "Barcelona Dead Zone" than anyone else and have investigated the 180 solution and 2-Galli supply a Laminas AS-1800 (192x180 fibreglass) for 842 € + carriage but, having invested in a Gibertini 125 which doesn't do the job, I too am loathe to part with that amount of readies until next winter. In the meantime, MediaHint (better than Filmon IMHO) does the job adequately.

2,000 € !!? - You're kidding!!!

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Fri 18 Apr 2014 16:12

A Feedhorn LNB makes a big Difference on a Gib 125. However the 125 is small anywhere south of Perps.

Tatra Man · Post by **Tatra Man** » Fri 18 Apr 2014 19:20

I must confess ignorance as far as feedhorns are concerned. Can I experiment with anything to add to my Inverto or would it mean a different LNB. If I could get away with a 150 it would help the cost but I have a spot I can hide a 180 and it would give me more weather allowance. I'm 1,345m up and it snows.

I'm not far South of Perpignan but quite a way West and I gather the Barcelona Dead Zone curls up our way to hit Andorra. I have had BBC1 Oxford and Channel 5 but only sporadically so I'm guessing I haven't done too badly for a 125.

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Sat 19 Apr 2014 05:31

Looking at the Map, Saillagouse is further south than Le Boulou, which explains your experience with the 125. !!

Merisin · Post by **Merisin** » Sat 19 Apr 2014 08:39

It seems to me this is a topic that goes round and round in circles and gets nowhere.

If you live north of the Toulouse/Montpellier line - no problem. Further south it's a different ball game. Should you live in a remote area with poor internet then you have a big problem if you want to continue to watch programmes available via Freesat. This is nothing new. It's just how things were back in the 90s.

Spend big bucks on big dishes etc if you like. But you could be throwing cash down the drain.

Mary

Tatra Man · Post by **Tatra Man** » Sat 19 Apr 2014 08:47

We need an old camper-van with a 180 on top to map out the area!

Could be a better way to invest 2,000 €.

Smiley G · Post by **Smiley G** » Sat 19 Apr 2014 10:54

Merisin wrote:It seems to me this is a topic that goes round and round in circles and gets nowhere.

If you live north of the Toulouse/Montpellier line - no problem. Further south it's a different ball game. Should you live in a remote area with poor internet then you have a big problem if you want to continue to watch programmes available via Freesat. This is nothing new. It's just how things were back in the 90s.

Spend big bucks on big dishes etc if you like. But you could be throwing cash down the drain.

Mary

I couldn't agree with you more. For most of us in the "extreme" south east of France, a large dish is not a realistic proposition and most of the ex-pats I know are relying on TV via the internet.
Perhaps we should be collectively persuading France Telecom/Local Government to invest in a faster broadband infrastructure as opposed to the poor system we have at present.

Merisin · Post by **Merisin** » Sat 19 Apr 2014 12:23

To add to what Smiley G has said.

It seems we are victims of a UK administration that is afraid of its' own shadow. The reason quoted for the recent changes is the perceived risk that the providers of material via Freesat MIGHT be at risk of prosecution for breach of contract by making the content available outside their remit. There is a suspicion that this has a political component too. No doubt it plays to those who support the UK Isolasionist Party and regard UK citizens living in Europe as beyond the pale.

In fact the UK TV companies have handed a nice little earner to Filmon et al. Money they could have had for their own coffers. At least the BBC makes programmes downloadable so broadband speed is not so critical.

I think we should be considering political action in the UK. Thee million ex-pats still have a lot of clout. If they choose to act.

Mary

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sat 19 Apr 2014 17:23

Merisin wrote:To add to what Smiley G has said.

It seems we are victims of a UK administration that is afraid of its' own shadow. The reason quoted for the recent changes is the perceived risk that the providers of material via Freesat MIGHT be at risk of prosecution for breach of contract by making the content available outside their remit. There is a suspicion that this has a political component too. No doubt it plays to those who support the UK Isolasionist Party and regard UK citizens living in Europe as beyond the pale.

In fact the UK TV companies have handed a nice little earner to Filmon et al. Money they could have had for their own coffers. At least the BBC makes programmes downloadable so broadband speed is not so critical.

I think we should be considering political action in the UK. Thee million ex-pats still have a lot of clout. If they choose to act.

Mary

What on earth have the changes got to do with the UK administration? They are brought about by the fact that ageing satellites have been replaced by new ones that are capable of focussing the signal more accurately.

It isn't the case that the TV companies face prosecution, it is a simple matter of their contracts with program makers. Do you seriously believe that a program maker is going to charge the same for the right to broadcast a program anywhere in the world rather than just the UK.

The TV companies always wanted to restrict the broadcast area in the past, they just couldn't .

As for downloading programs, a Sky Plus subscription will let you download from any of the terrestrial channels even if your broadband is slow and there are plenty of ways to download without paying a subscription. You just need to know how.

I think you should stop confusing commerce with politics.

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Sat 19 Apr 2014 17:53

Merisin wrote:
I think we should be considering political action in the UK. Thee million ex-pats still have a lot of clout. If they choose to act.

Mary

That sound like a real vote-winner (even if the whole thing were not misconceived, as Allan has explained): let's give the expats for nothing what everyone else has to pay a licence-fee for.

Merisin · Post by **Merisin** » Sat 19 Apr 2014 18:51

Where have I suggested that ex-pats should continue to watch UK TV for free? Au contraire I stated that the UK TV companies lost an opportunity to create a positive income stream. Also, there is an opinion that broadcasting comes under EU open border regulations and denying ex-pats access to their home fare is a contravention to the EU charter.

If you are French you pay a small fee for a card to watch satellite TNTSAT. The Germans just broadcast the lot. For free.

Mary

Helen · Post by **Helen** » Sat 19 Apr 2014 21:37

Merisin, as Allan has already said, the broadcasters don't necessarily have the rights to exploit their programmes outside of the UK. They commission or acquire programmes for the UK only - and it's most likely the producer who retains the distribution rights for territories other than the UK. If you're a broadcaster who also has a production arm (e.g. BBC, ITV), then yes, you can exploit titles you produce outside of the UK, - but that's on a per title basis, territory by territory, not the entire schedule.

In fact, ITV has recently launched an international service https://itvessentials.com

Broadcasters pay many millions every year for the programmes on which they build their schedules - where they can exploit the rights they've acquired with those programmes, they most certainly will. But they haven't missed an opportunity to take their schedules to the ex-pat audience across Europe, when they don't have the right to do it in the first place.

martyn94 · Post by **martyn94** » Sun 20 Apr 2014 12:02

Merisin wrote:Where have I suggested that ex-pats should continue to watch UK TV for free? Au contraire I stated that the UK TV companies lost an opportunity to create a positive income stream. Also, there is an opinion that broadcasting comes under EU open border regulations and denying ex-pats access to their home fare is a contravention to the EU charter.

Mary

On re-reading, apologies. But it leaves me at a loss to understand you. Both BBC and itv already allow paid-for access outside the UK to material that they have the right to sell. I don't see how any amount of political pressure in the UK, or desire for an income stream, will make them try to exploit rights they don't own (or have licenced out to others). I am handicapped by my increasing unfamiliarity with current programming, but I doubt that UK broadcasters have rights outside the UK to a lot of the programmes that people seem to be keen on. I can well believe that things are different for eg French and German broadcasters: I don't imagine that the rights to cop-shows badly dubbed into minor languages need to be tied up so tightly as those to original-language material.

There remains the possibility that this carve-up will be found contrary to EU obligations. But this was mooted a long time ago and has led nowhere yet, so I am not holding my breath.

For myself, I find that time is a great healer: after many months away, for various reasons, the thought of becoming a regular viewer again leaves me stone cold. Apart from the news, which is readily available.

russell · Post by **russell** » Sun 20 Apr 2014 22:34

Tatra Man wrote:I have a spot I can hide a 180 and it would give me more weather allowance. I'm 1,345m up and it snows.

Snow is less of a problem than heavy rain - the highest attenuation occurs during thunderstorms.

Russell.

Merisin · Post by **Merisin** » Mon 21 Apr 2014 06:29

Martyn94 - apologies accepted - merci

Mary

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Mon 21 Apr 2014 07:08

Snow ' sticking to the Dish/LNB' can be a problem. But with 'GroundMounted' Dishes it can easily be 'carefully' wiped off..... or try using Warm Water, it is quite a good solution.

rhys · Post by **rhys** » Mon 12 May 2014 11:21

I am in Argel`es ( near the rondpoint of the Games thing ), so northern edge of.
Last year I could receive plenty of Freesat channels, plus a number of channels I'd not seen before like CNN / Movies4Men / More than Movies / CBS Drama etc..

This year I can still get the non-Freesat channels but not the Freesat ones which are obviously the ones I wd prefer.

So In deduce that the satellite I used to watch the Freesat channels on is still up there sending down its beams / rays etc..

The technical point I would like to ask is this : although the content seems to have disappeared, the technical info strip below each channel which showed the strength of the signal ( two green bars with %ages ) are still there for some of the channels - why would that be exactly?

And the other thing I note is that some of the channels Info states 'No Signal' whereas others ( especially the E4 group ) state # Signal scrambled #.

What I am wondering is whether there is still, in fact, a signal being sent from the E4 etc channels, but scrambled, and if so is there some digibox which would enable me to unscramble those signals ? Only half the previous load of Freesat channels but better half a loaf etc ??

Just out of intellectual interest - if in fact there is no signal whatsoever being broadcast from on high by this particular Astra satellite, then what is the origin of the 'signal scrambled' message ?

Slightly related point : I also have a smaller dish which used to receive the standard 5 or 6 main French channels through an ( from memory ) analogue satellite broadcast. I understand that has all been abolished with the new TNT, but I have also seen reference to receiving the TNT channels now through a new satellite.

Is this a ( fairly ? ) simple matter of buying a new ( sigh ) TNT digibox and hooking it up to the old French ( not very big diameter ) parabole ? and then ( if necessary ) re-pointing the old French dish towards its new satellite ( or are they still using the old one ? ).

( I realize there are terrestrial aerials but there are trees between me and the direction all nearby TNT aerials are pointed in so I don't think that is a solution, whereas the trees are not in the way of the satellites ).

PS is there an earliest / latest date by which it will be know whether a larger dish set-up will recover some at least of the Freesat channels ?

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Mon 12 May 2014 16:23

2 of the 3 Astra 2 Satellites have been replaced leading to the reduction in Footprint in the 'southern' third of France.

If you want French Satellite Channels it is just a question of buying a TNTSat Decoder with Card and having the Dish Pointed at 19e. Astra1. or a Fransat Decoder with Card and have the Dish pointed at the Atlantic Bird Satellite at 5w.

Your only solution for the UK 'FTA' Channels via Satellite is the 150/180 Dish.

Otherwise these channels can be received via an IPTV System connected to your Router.

Or you can view them on your Laptop/Computer/Tablet or even Smartphone!!!

more info on my website. www.british-tv-in-france.co.uk

rhys · Post by **rhys** » Mon 12 May 2014 17:19

I have the general idea that the Freesat satelite has changed so as to disadvantage viewers south of the UK - but what is the significance of SOME of the Freesat channels having the legend ' SIGNAL SCRAMBLED' in the info box, as opposed to 'NO SIGNAL' which the rest of them have?

DOes that mean that with the necessary digibox it might be possible to unscramble them ??

Regarding your reference to the Frecnh TNT via satellite requiring a 'BOX with Card' can you clarify the implication of 'with card' ? Does that mean some kind of subscription, on either a one-off or renewable monthly / yearly basis ? I assumed that the TNT channels were same as Freeview or Freesat in UK - ie free, without sub ?

[ I can't at the moment have internet via landline as the nearest telegraph pole is too far to allow a line to be just dropped from it to my caravan - would require ( I think ) either another pole or a long trench........ I imagine the Fr Tel people would pay for neither. ]

montgolfiere · Post by **montgolfiere** » Mon 12 May 2014 19:17

The Satellites have been replaced by new Models and have been designed to 'improve Reception in the UK'. Any consequences outside this 'Target Area' is of no concern to SES/Astra and Sky.

The French TNTsat /Fransat Systems have a FTV Card. it needs replacing after 4 years for a modest fee. (You need to buy the correct TNTSat Box or Fransat Box as well).

You will not get 95% of the UK Domestic Channels without the large Dish. Most are not encoded.

The only 'Mainstream' UK FTA channels you will get with a Sky Subscription are ITV 2 , 3, 4... (HD Versions with an HD Box and HD subscription).

All this may also Change when Astra 2g comes into service.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Mon 12 May 2014 19:27

[quote="rhys"]I have the general idea that the Freesat satelite has changed so as to disadvantage viewers south of the UK - but what is the significance of SOME of the Freesat channels having the legend ' SIGNAL SCRAMBLED' in the info box, as opposed to 'NO SIGNAL' which the rest of them have?

DOes that mean that with the necessary digibox it might be possible to unscramble them ??
quote]

According to the Lyngsat database, E4 is broadcast on 2 frequencies, one of which is encrypted and is on a pan-European beam, the other is on the UK beam.

The ecrypted channel can be received on a Sky box with a Freesat from Sky card

This may be what you are seeing

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