Limoux producer accused of fraud

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Santiago
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Limoux producer accused of fraud

Post by Santiago » Wed 11 Feb 2009 19:33

Apparently a big producer in Limoux has been caught fraudulently selling Pinot noir to E&G Gallo in the States via a negociant. It was rumbled because Gallo were selling more Pinot than Limoux produces!

Sieur des Arques are the boys behind that downmarket fizz Aimery.

mec 1

Post by mec 1 » Wed 11 Feb 2009 22:09

How much pinot is grown down here(ok in 11),and what would the cost be to get it to the states and since they the states grow more of the pinot grape where is the reason.Down market is just a stuck up wine snobbery term for wine that normal folks can afford. 8)

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PaddyFrog
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Re: Limoux producer accused of fraud

Post by PaddyFrog » Wed 11 Feb 2009 22:10

Santiago wrote:Apparently a big producer in Limoux has been caught fraudulently selling Pinot noir to E&G Gallo in the States via a negociant. It was rumbled because Gallo were selling more Pinot than Limoux produces!

Sieur des Arques are the boys behind that downmarket fizz Aimery.
Jonathan,
The vinerons have been selling dodgy products for years, 22 years ago Ethanol in Italian wines.

PS I prefer Limoux who have been producing fizz since 1531, rather than the new crappy fizz for Rheims.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Michael

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Santiago
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Post by Santiago » Thu 12 Feb 2009 10:23

Quite right PF. I'm a fan of Limoux as opposed to Champers which, although probably does make the best sparklers in the world, also produces a lot of overpriced ordinary stuff.

By downmarket, I mean mass-produced, not very nice, always on special-offer stuff. It is not cheaper than decent Limoux, just marketed more forcefully.

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Post by polremy » Thu 12 Feb 2009 12:28

cheers! :D

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Post by polremy » Thu 12 Feb 2009 12:29

That wasn't a bit of advertising, honest!
Have gone upmarket - it's cava round these parts.
Just waiting for our visitors to arrive to open one we have on ice.

mec 1

Post by mec 1 » Thu 12 Feb 2009 15:12

Santiago wrote: By downmarket, I mean mass-produced, not very nice, always on special-offer stuff. It is not cheaper than decent Limoux, just marketed more forcefully.

I will take issue again with your "downmarket".Why is mass-produced wine in your opinion not very nice?One man band "boutique" wines are produced in small amounts by one man,mass- produced wines are by thier very nature mass-produced though this does not mean that they(some not all)are not crafted with the same care and attention.The economy of scale which the mass-produced wines offer then can be passed down to the wine drinker unlike the one man band wine producer who must pass down the costs onto a smaller amount of units thus making his/her wine a higher price. :roll:

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polremy
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Post by polremy » Thu 12 Feb 2009 15:14

just out of curiosity, how hot did you think it would be?

mec 1

Post by mec 1 » Thu 12 Feb 2009 15:27

What,the wine???? :?

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polremy
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Post by polremy » Thu 12 Feb 2009 17:06

er, actually i was referring to your signature!

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Colin L
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Post by Colin L » Thu 12 Feb 2009 17:25

Santiago wrote: By downmarket, I mean mass-produced, not very nice, always on special-offer stuff..
I think, Mec, you have misread this. As it is written, this is a definition of downmarket as wine which is mass-produced and not very nice and always on special offer. That is not the same as saying that all mass-produced wine is by definition not nice.

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Post by john » Thu 12 Feb 2009 18:14

No,I think I understand what mec is saying. Colin is edging towards it.It's something I've been banging on about for some time myself.

"Mass produced" does not necessarily mean horrid or downmaket.

"Boutique" (whatever THAT means) does not necessarily mean excellent and upmarket.

Just because a wine is sold in a supermarket does not mean it must be rubbish.

Just because a wine is produced by a "one man band " operation does not mean it must be interesting /excellent.

I've had some super wines from supermarkets,just as I've had some dreadful stuff direct from a small cave.

There is room for ALL products in the market,and the consumer will choose on a whole host of criteria.

mec 1

Post by mec 1 » Thu 12 Feb 2009 18:25

While I agree with john at the same time I must take issue with colin ouote...."I think, Mec, you have misread this. As it is written, this is a definition of downmarket as wine which is mass-produced and not very nice and always on special offer. That is not the same as saying that all mass-produced wine is by definition not nice."....



santiago wrote"By downmarket, I mean mass-produced, not very nice, always on special-offer stuff. It is not cheaper than decent Limoux, just marketed more forcefully.


So mass-produced wine on "special" is down market?

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Post by rbg » Thu 12 Feb 2009 19:03

think you should try this one :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ryyy-zbKxo

Serge

Post by Serge » Thu 12 Feb 2009 20:16

I am not a big wine drinker but this is what they mean to me:

Mass produced = cheaper than average, reasonable quality quaffing wine.

Boutique = usually overpriced, average quality, bought by pretend wine buffs.





Just in case - no offence intended ..............................

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Post by john » Thu 12 Feb 2009 20:44

I'm glad I'm not the only one who regards this word "boutique" to describe wine,hotels etc as totally ridiculous.

I actively refuse to stay in any hotel that describes itself as "boutique".

Serge

Post by Serge » Thu 12 Feb 2009 21:42

mec 1 wrote:What,the wine???? :?
About your signature......



You need to be on the lookout for some wood.

We used to have some...........................:cry:

:lol: :lol:

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Post by Colin L » Thu 12 Feb 2009 22:55

My contribution above was meant only to be an elucidation of what, by its construction, Santiago's sentence meant.



You can take the man out of English teaching but you can't take the English teacher out the man :roll:

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Santiago
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Post by Santiago » Fri 13 Feb 2009 00:21

What you are saying is correct. Just because a wine is mass produced does not mean it needs to be rubbish and vice-versa. However, I do hold that Aimery Limoux is a mass produced inferior wine of its type and that's what this thread is about.

I also think it says something about a producer if they have been found to be selling wine as Pinot which is not Pinot.

Choose your terms gents. You may not like boutique (and I agree it's a bit abused) but what word would you choose for something that is a bit exclusive, a bit special, a bit more luxurious than the norm?

When you treat yourself to something, how do you describe that?

Serge

Post by Serge » Fri 13 Feb 2009 00:52

Santiago wrote: but what word would you choose for something that is a bit exclusive, a bit special, a bit more luxurious than the norm?

When you treat yourself to something, how do you describe that?
With wine is it not down to personal taste? I mean something that is exclusive, special and luxurious to one person might be rubbish to another, I don't consider myself to be qualified to comment on whether a wine is exclusive, special or luxurious - I just know what I like.

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Post by john » Fri 13 Feb 2009 09:28

Santiago wrote: Choose your terms gents. You may not like boutique (and I agree it's a bit abused) but what word would you choose for something that is a bit exclusive, a bit special, a bit more luxurious than the norm?

When you treat yourself to something, how do you describe that?
I think you've answered your own question,Santiago. The words you use are fine,English ones. What is wrong with saying something is "exclusive"

"Boutique" is a French word introduced by the Americans into English. Quite incorrectly as well (it means "shop" for gawd's sake). Don't forget these are the same people who describe the main course at a meal as the "entrée" !!!

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Post by Santiago » Fri 13 Feb 2009 09:38

Actually I do disagree with you, Serge. It is not all down to personal taste.

We have a regular wine club with members who cover the whole range of wine drinker. What we find is that there is a very high consensus on which wines are felt to better than others.

These people have no special abilities, are no more foolish with their money and are no more snobbish than you, mec or John. What makes them different is that they are interested in learning to appreciate wine rather than just drink it and to discover wines they might not previously have chosen.

I would say, from experience, that the worst and best wines are made by small producers and the ones in the middle are made by the bigger companies.

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Post by PaddyFrog » Fri 13 Feb 2009 09:44

Santiago wrote: Choose your terms gents. You may not like boutique (and I agree it's a bit abused) but what word would you choose for something that is a bit exclusive, a bit special, a bit more luxurious than the norm?

EXPENSIVE
Michael

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Post by john » Fri 13 Feb 2009 10:31

Santiago wrote:.

These people have no special abilities, are no more foolish with their money and are no more snobbish than you, mec or John. What makes them different is that they are interested in learning to appreciate wine rather than just drink it and to discover wines they might not previously have chosen.

I would say, from experience, that the worst and best wines are made by small producers and the ones in the middle are made by the bigger companies.
Your last point is probably fair,but the thing you miss is that,as Michael says,the smaller guys tend to make far more expensive wines,and,whereas you don't mind paying a few Euros and end up with a poor wine from time to time,it's not quite so easy to laugh it off when it happens and you've paid "boutique" prices.

As regards your first point,you don't need to be a member of some "club" to discover new wines and have an open mind. As you know,my method is to frequent all manner of wine vendors and try anything that catches my eye/takes my fancy. As long as it's within my budget,I'll try anything once!

And I suspect there are many hundreds of folk round here who do much the same thing. Sure,there will be those who stick to what they know/what they like,and it's not down to you or me to criticise them for that.

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Post by polremy » Fri 13 Feb 2009 10:35

that could have been me talking, john.

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Post by Santiago » Fri 13 Feb 2009 12:56

Lets not go there again :roll:

I just thought it funny that the Aimery guys had been selling more Pinot to Gallo than the whole of the Aude produces and it took them 4 years to figure it out.

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Post by opas » Fri 13 Feb 2009 13:19

Santiago wrote: Choose your terms gents. You may not like boutique (and I agree it's a bit abused) but what word would you choose for something that is a bit exclusive, a bit special, a bit more luxurious than the norm?

When you treat yourself to something, how do you describe that?
Indulgent. To me that usually means expensive. :oops:

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Post by john » Fri 13 Feb 2009 13:51

Santiago wrote:Lets not go there again :roll:

I just thought it funny that the Aimery guys had been selling more Pinot to Gallo than the whole of the Aude produces and it took them 4 years to figure it out.
For obvious reasons,I've not taken a HUGE interest in this story,Santiago,but if what you say is true,surely it says more about the ineptitude of the French and US regulatory authorities' checks than it does about the company who sourced/shipped the grapes/juice?

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Post by Santiago » Fri 13 Feb 2009 14:32

I think, and I could be wrong, that the reason such a fraud can escape the eyes of the authorities is that Pinot Noir from the Aude would just be classified as Vin de Pays d'Oc. It gets sold like that to a negociant (2 in this case) who then exports it to Gallo. Gallo believe, or would have the consumer believe, that it is 100% Pinot noir so that is what gets put on the labels when the wine is bottled in the US.

As a matter of interest, in the US a pinot noir wine only needs to contain 75% pinot, so Gallo may have thought they were acting legally. However, by labelling it Vin de Pays d'Oc they fall under the much stricter EU rules.

Here's the Decanter report http://www.decanter.com/news/276644.html

mec 1

Post by mec 1 » Fri 13 Feb 2009 21:07

The article does not say that there will be for sure a court case or what if any charges if any will be brought.
The down market wine statement made me uneasy.Some of us are hard working working class folk and have families to support and not the second home owning or the lets pretend to be french 3mths a year teacher types.Did you once say that a decent bottle of wine could not be had for under a fiver?one bottle a day at a fiver is 35 euros,one litre from the coop 1euro 10 by 7 days 7.70euros.The difference makes a big hole the family budget. :wink:

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