Co-operatives

Recommendations, comments or questions about wine matters

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Kathy
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Co-operatives

Post by Kathy » Thu 20 Mar 2008 22:30

No one ever mentions buying wine from the co-operatives that I have seen on my travels. Can you do so? and what are you likely to expect?

Outie

Post by Outie » Fri 21 Mar 2008 08:23

Kathy co-ops are a great place to buy wine from and whats more you can taste the wine before you buy it.That said the quality can very a great deal,there a thread on co-ops somewhere on here,

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john
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Post by john » Fri 21 Mar 2008 08:57

I'd agree with Outie on that one Kathy. Some people knock the Co-ops on principle,but the three things they do do are:

1, a wide range of wine to suit most tastes/pockets

2, offer a consistent product

3, have easily accessible tasting facilities (as Outie points out)

It's fair to say that some are better than others. I've always liked the one at Terrats,and also the one in Maury. Someone else I know told me recently that the one in St André is worth a look too.

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Post by Santiago » Fri 21 Mar 2008 09:55

Yes coops are good places to taste and buy wine, often at good value prices. Some are better than others, my top tips are Terrats, Fourques, Lesquerde, Belesta, Rivesaltes and Baixas.

You can also buy direct from the tank, take your own plastic bottles. Don't expect anything special. It's bulk wine made to sell cheap, after all.

Bon chance.

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Post by ruby » Fri 21 Mar 2008 09:59

The Cave in Belesta has now closed and the shop is now in Cassagnes, they have sold the Belesta Cave building to a couple who are making it into a huge hotel.

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Post by Kathy » Fri 21 Mar 2008 10:01

Thanks for the recomendations. When I googled Terrats it turns out that that is the wine I always buy from the supermarket for everyday consumption. I love the Terrassous rose. On my must visit list when we come out in Easter.

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Post by sue and paul » Fri 21 Mar 2008 10:36

After trying a whole range of local whites and rosés, for regular drinking/in-sun-on-patio sort of thing, in boxes we buy El Burro rosé (St André coop, and Cellier des Albères Chardonnay (St Génis des Fontaines coop) - both cheap and cheerful. We also like Villeclare rosé (bottle) from Palau del Vidre.

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Post by Kate » Fri 21 Mar 2008 10:52

I bought a box of Montana red (on te road from Perps to Le Boulou, turn left at roundabout before the village catalan and follow signs - there is also a museum there. Very nice and drinkable and 18e for 10 litres

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Post by john » Fri 21 Mar 2008 11:11

I know several of the better restaurants use Montana as their jug wine,and very good it is too.Not sure if it is a co-op or a stand alone winery. 18€ for 10 l BiB is at the top end price wise,but,Kate is right...you get what you pay for.Some of the stuff they punt out at less than 10€ per litre is virtually undrinkable.

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Post by Santiago » Fri 21 Mar 2008 13:45

Forget the fact that it's in a box and judge it as a wine. Montana's BIB a good cheap wine and better than a fair number of bottled wines such as Fruite Catalan. Montana is a private estate.

Socially the plus side of buying direct from a coop is that the profit gets divided among all the members of the coop. If you buy the same wine at the supermarket, the coop only gets 50% max. I guess it's a small gesture but would you rather see vineyards around your villages or supermarket complexes?

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Post by Kathy » Fri 21 Mar 2008 16:12

Didn't know that about the %'s. All the more reason then to buy direct.

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john
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Post by john » Fri 21 Mar 2008 16:30

Santiago wrote:. If you buy the same wine at the supermarket, the coop only gets 50% max. I guess it's a small gesture but would you rather see vineyards around your villages or supermarket complexes?
Its fairly common that the price of a particular co-op's BiB is exactly the same in a supermarket as it would be if you bought direct.

So presumably the co-op sells it to Leclerc et al ,at the reduced price to which you refer, in the full knowledge that they'll be selling to the public it at an identical price to what is available at the co-op?

So,either there is ;

a, price agreement (or put another way,"fixing") between the co-op and the supermarket. OR

b, the co-op could afford to sell direct to the public at a lower price (cutting out the middle man).

It's got to be one of the two!

Outie

Post by Outie » Fri 21 Mar 2008 20:51

Try this one john,I can sometimes buy wine in the local champion for LESS then I can buy it direct from the co-op and that is buying the wine with the 10lt BIB`s and it is still less than than the co-op,s en vrac.Nice wine as well.There are reasons why the wine would be cheaper in champion but thats for another day.

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Post by Santiago » Fri 21 Mar 2008 23:20

This is how it works:

The supermarket or caviste insists that the producer does not offer the wine cheaper than they do otherwise they won't buy it.

Cavistes want a 33% discount and supermarkets want 50%.

So it is price fixing, but not by the producer.

There is nothing to stop the supermarket offering a 20% sale. They still make 30% clear profit. If the coop or winery did the same they would be dropped by all the retailers.

The coops sell wine at pretty low margins anyway. At 50% discount they hardly make enough to pay the farmers enough to keep going, considering all the social security payments they have to make.

So please don't feel the coop is ripping you off. They could sell to you cheaper but you don't buy 150,000 bottles. The supermarket is making more money on the bottle than the producer and all they have to do is put it on a shelf.

It is basic economics. If you phone Sony, they are not going to sell you a flat screen TV at half price.

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Post by john » Sat 22 Mar 2008 09:24

Santiago wrote:This is how it works:

So it is price fixing, but not by the producer.


It is basic economics. If you phone Sony, they are not going to sell you a flat screen TV at half price.
Of course not.Obviously.

But,as you say above,it IS price fixing. I don't really care by whom(in any case it takes two parties ,the buyer and the seller,to fix a price). At the end of the day,the consumer is paying more than he should for the final product.

In any other area,there'd be scope for some "grey market" intervention.

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Post by Santiago » Sat 22 Mar 2008 09:42

The consumer always pays more than the base price for the product. That is the nature of business.

The difference goes to pay for the tasting facility at the coop, the salesperson, and the costs of advertising the caveaux.

By the way you can always buy en vrac, then there is no supermarket competition so presumably the cost is as low as possible.

You could always make your own wine if 1.27 a litre is too muct to pay. What about the poor souls in the UK who now have £1.71 to pay in duty before they even get a sniff of the wine.

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Post by john » Sat 22 Mar 2008 10:12

Santiago wrote:The consumer always pays more than the base price for the product. That is the nature of business.

.
Absolutely,but there again,no-one is suggesting we should pay "base price".There is plenty of scope between 0-50% for a little market led "tinkering".

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Post by PaddyFrog » Sat 22 Mar 2008 11:41

I buy mine from the Co- Op in Cabestany.

Very nice Reds.


Michael


PS Never had a bad tap.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post by john » Sat 22 Mar 2008 14:13

Not tried theirs,PF. What selection of reds do they do? And at what price.

I'd be fascinated to know where Santiago can get a drinkable quality BiB wine at 1.27 a litre?!

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Post by PaddyFrog » Sat 22 Mar 2008 20:41

john wrote:Not tried theirs,PF. What selection of reds do they do? And at what price. I
John,
Here is a link to their Web site.


http://www.vignerons-cabestany-alenya.fr/.


Michael

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Post by Santiago » Sun 23 Mar 2008 10:18

I do agree with you that the customer should be able to get the wine slightly cheaper from the producer but the wine trade dictate their terms.

You'll find that coops and independents will often give you a free bottle or a case discount when you buy direct, as well as having their own special offers. I'm reticent to publicise this because I know Henri in Ceret uses this forum but I offer 10% discount on case sales from the winery. (There - he'll never stock me now :cry: )

Outie

Post by Outie » Sun 23 Mar 2008 20:59

John wrote"I'd be fascinated to know where Santiago can get a drinkable quality BiB wine at 1.27 a litre?!....." Hey john do some foot slogging and like me I`m sure you will find something too your taste for said price.
Last edited by Outie on Mon 24 Mar 2008 09:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Santiago » Sun 23 Mar 2008 22:19

john wrote:Not tried theirs,PF. What selection of reds do they do? And at what price.

I'd be fascinated to know where Santiago can get a drinkable quality BiB wine at 1.27 a litre?!
Did I say "drinkable quality"? Anyway. that's subjective. Somebody's drinking it. Not me for sure.

Outie

Post by Outie » Mon 24 Mar 2008 09:15

At that price it would be VdP,which in some cases is better than CdR.

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Post by john » Mon 24 Mar 2008 09:43

Santiago wrote:Did I say "drinkable quality"? Somebody's drinking it. Not me for sure.
I'm surprised that ,being in the trade you're in Santiago, you expect other people to drink something you're not prepared to yourself.......

Outie

Post by Outie » Mon 24 Mar 2008 20:51

You do have a point.................. :roll:

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Post by Santiago » Tue 25 Mar 2008 21:58

Just to clarify, I'm not in the wine trade. I'm a producer.

Unfortunately lots of people drink stuff I'm not prepared to allow past my lips. I'm not recommending it. Cheap booze can easily lead to alcoholism.

Outie

Post by Outie » Wed 26 Mar 2008 10:53

"Cheap" booze is down to income,surely. :?:

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Post by john » Wed 26 Mar 2008 11:01

Santiago wrote:Just to clarify, I'm not in the wine trade. I'm a producer.

.
What's the difference?

Presumably you produce your wine to sell,as opposed to give away.

QED you are in the wine trade.

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Post by Santiago » Wed 26 Mar 2008 18:26

No, I don't buy and sell therefore I'm not in the wine trade. I hate being pedantic but as it's raining and I can't prune, here is the explanation...

The context of the word trade in the building trade refers to the set of skills used. In the wine trade it refers to being in the business of buying and selling, not any set of skills. I don't buy wine, I only produce and sell it, therefore I'm not in what is understood as the wine trade.

As I said, I don't expect people to drink wine they don't like.

That's me done for pointless arguments. Rachel says I'm wasting time.

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