Corked wines

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Outie

Corked wines

Post by Outie » Sun 09 Mar 2008 21:17

Corked wines,plastic cork or screw top?

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Santiago
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Post by Santiago » Mon 10 Mar 2008 09:43


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Post by Santiago » Mon 10 Mar 2008 09:50

I'm just thinking. That Chilean Cabernet that you said was corked. Doesn't it come with a plastic stopper?

Outie

Post by Outie » Mon 10 Mar 2008 11:10

No,it was the 2004 not the 2007 lidl are now selling.

Outie

Post by Outie » Mon 10 Mar 2008 21:18

Santiago wrote:For an indepth answer - see this.
http://itotd.com/articles/410/the-great-cork-debate/

The link adds nothing new and indeed is bias to the oak cork tree,s,saying that if the wine industry were to stop using cork from the cork oak tree then the cork oak would be no more.Noting that the "corked" wine would be a thing of the past does not seem to come into it.

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Post by Santiago » Tue 11 Mar 2008 19:57

There are now wines available in aluminum bottles and tetrapaks. It doesn't mean that you're going to see Petrus in one any time soon.

I guess for cheap wine, it makes little sense to use cork when plastic stoppers are cheaper.

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Post by blackduff » Tue 11 Mar 2008 21:21

For plastic corks, there has to be some "mold release chemical" in order to produce the plastics. Similar to plastic cups, there's chemicals on the plastic and has to be cleaned before using.

There are water based mold release chemicals but does the cork manufacturer wash these corks????

If not, what does this to the wine?

Blackduff

Outie

Post by Outie » Wed 12 Mar 2008 08:12

Tetrapaks have their advantages,we used to buy them 15yrs ago while sailing around the med they are easy to store and rarely if ever go off,problem is that once openned they cannot be re-sealed.Alu cans,well it just does not "feel" right,true they can be easy to store but the one,s I have seen tended to be very thin tin and were easy to dent.



try this link http://www.winesofinterest.co.uk/cork_p ... rewtop.htm

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Post by john » Thu 13 Mar 2008 17:59

To my mind,all this cork v plastic v screw cap v BiB argument is a bit of a red herring. Surely,it's what actually goes into the container that's important,not what the container is made out of?

While I was in New Zealand I got used to having screw cap bottles at every meal. I cannot say I could tell one iota of difference between the taste of those wines and those with corks.

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Post by carol sheridan » Thu 13 Mar 2008 19:12

I love screw tops - I recently tried to use my 'lifting arm' corkscrew on a perfectly normal looking cork, only to find it was plastic.

Outie

Post by Outie » Thu 13 Mar 2008 19:16

Santiago wrote:I'm just thinking. That Chilean Cabernet that you said was corked. Doesn't it come with a plastic stopper?


The 2007 comes with a screw top,Which I think would be the way to go.

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Post by Santiago » Fri 14 Mar 2008 09:15

It's all part of the packaging. I've said this before but unfortunately you can't tell what the wine in the bottle is going to be like until you open it. Therefore the lable, bottle and closure are all chosen to appeal to the customer.

If the targetted customer doesn't care whether it's real cork or not, you may as well use plastic stoppers as they are cheaper and carry less risk in the short term.

I do believe that traditional wines age better with a good quality cork closure than anything else. For other kinds of wine, modern closures have some advantages.

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Post by john » Fri 14 Mar 2008 09:45

Santiago wrote:It's all part of the packaging. I've said this before but unfortunately you can't tell what the wine in the bottle is going to be like until you open it. Therefore the lable, bottle and closure are all chosen to appeal to the customer.

.
Santiago,this is a fair point if what you are referring to is the CONDITION of the wine (eg whether it's gone off),but I'm not sure whether this is relevant as regards quality.

As you are better aware than I, in NZ ALL wine is sold with screw tops (including some very top-notch stuff). There doesn't seem to be any antipathy towards plactic/screw top there.

I'm sure it's all to do with snobbery.You are correct that certain people would not "sully themselves " with screw top wine. As a marketing point,that's fair enough...each to his own.....but let's not confuse that with keeping wine in top quality condition.

Outie

Post by Outie » Fri 14 Mar 2008 21:09

Santiago as his own views but there is also the seal on/around the top of the cork which help to wine to "age" which should be taken in to account.Screw tops have three layers the outer metal, the middle and the inside which touches the wine.All things considered if a wine can be sure to be free of the "corked"effect then it must be a good thing.We used to buy many cases of wine to take back to the UK only to find that at the very least one bottle was corked,and the wine was not table wine so I lean towards screw tops or bag in box but that is another topic in it`s self.

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Post by Santiago » Sat 15 Mar 2008 18:53

It's a well known fact in the wine industry that the use of chlorine as a cleaning agent will increase the chances of corked wine. You can even get corked wine in screwcap this way.

Chlorine is a much cheaper and easier cleaning product than the alternatives, therefore most wineries making bulk wine (and nearly all coops) use chlorine. That's why such producers are most eager to move to alternative packaging.

NZ is probably the greatest proponent of screwcaps. The winery where I worked, Neudorf, is a founder member of the Screwcap Initiative. They ran side-by-side comparisons of cork and screwcap for a couple of years and put everything under screwcap in 2003. However they have gone back to cork for their top wines designed for ageing. This may be partly down to consumer preference but more likely because after several years, the wine under cork tastes better.

Outie

Post by Outie » Sat 15 Mar 2008 21:26

Santiago wrote:It's a well known fact in the wine industry that the use of chlorine as a cleaning agent will increase the chances of corked wine. You can even get corked wine in screwcap this way.

Chlorine is a much cheaper and easier cleaning product than the alternatives, therefore most wineries making bulk wine (and nearly all coops) use chlorine. That's why such producers are most eager to move to alternative packaging.
I`m trying to understand how a bottle of wine not using cork as a stopper could become "corked",screw tops are sterile non organic seals.Also if most coop,s use chlorine for cleaning and since "most" wines made in coop,s do not go off it must have something going for it.

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Post by Santiago » Sun 16 Mar 2008 08:21

You can get the moulds that cause cork-taint infecting the winery as a whole, therefore it won't matter what stopper you use, there will still be a risk. I had 2 bottles of Italian white from Laithewaites, sealed with plastic stoppers, that had cork taint.

Secondly, with chlorine and cheap corks the risk is around 10%, therefore "most" wines will be OK. I don't use chlorine and I use treated corks. My risk is supposed to be around 0.07% which I can live with.

Outie

Post by Outie » Sun 16 Mar 2008 15:07

While I do agree that cheaper wines with cork stoppers do tend to suffer more from the "corked" effect by no means are the dear wines immuned.Some wines I have bought have had 3/4 bottles out of a 12 bottle case corked but other cases of the same wine bought at the same time have been 100% fine cork wise.There was a time when I used to deal with bottle seals and every time they came in closed packages which were sealed,so if the winery had it problem it could not be the fault of the seals.Which does nothing to advance the debate on screw tops only points out the production of wine needs to be carried out in the most hygenic way possible
One time 10% of wines were thought to be "corked" on an average 0.7% is a good rate of spoilage if ever there was a good rate.

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Post by john » Sun 16 Mar 2008 15:35

Outie,where on earth do you buy all this "corked "wine? Please let us know,so we can all avoid this particular shop!

Like you I buy a lot of wine(of varying price/quality,and varying sources both in France and Spain). I can honestly say that I cannot remember the last time I bought a "corked "one. If I get 2 a year,then probably that's an over-estimate.

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Post by Outie » Sun 16 Mar 2008 21:23

John do please read the thread,I got a chilean cab/sav that was corked.

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Post by john » Mon 17 Mar 2008 09:28

Outie wrote:I have bought have had 3/4 bottles out of a 12 bottle case corked but other cases of the same wine bought at the same time have been 100% fine cork wise. One time 10% of wines were thought to be "corked" on an average 0.7% is a good rate of spoilage if ever there was a good rate.
Was this (the Chilean stuff) the wine to which you were referring? If not,where did you get it? Lidl as well?

I'm not taking the p*ss ,mate. I do genuinely want to know.Forewarned is forearmed!! I do not regard over 25% of bottles in case being potentially undrinkable as being an acceptable figure.

Outie

Post by Outie » Mon 17 Mar 2008 16:09

The chilean in deed was from lidl but I bought a case of the `04 a couple of years ago tried one and found it hard going so away it went only to be re-discovered a few months ago and on trying it had aged well and was smoother and still fruity.The last couple of bottles were open and me and paddyfrog tried them the first on was great like I posted earlier but the 2nd was corked so bad in went down the sink,bare in mind this was an `04 the chilean lidl are doing now is an 07 WITH a screw top. The case the had 3/4 bottles that were corked,I bought in calais on the way back to the UK sometime ago,it was claret and realy good at that so good that I bought it quite often even then I would get on average I bottle per case gone bad and calais was a long way to go back to complain. :?

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Post by john » Mon 17 Mar 2008 16:56

Thanks for that Outie.Interesting. You are by no means the only person who 's complained about sub-standard wine from the Calais places(Eastenders,BeerLovers,etc). The only time I've ever sampled their wares was when somebody opened a bottle of "The Dog's Bollocks" red they bought there. Never drunk such a load of rubbish in all my life.

I can honestly say I've NEVER had a corked bottle from Lidl,Aldi or Leader Price.The odd one from Auchan,but in the main,no probs.

Outie

Post by Outie » Mon 17 Mar 2008 20:55

John I/we have never bought anything in the places you mention.The wine was bought in carefour calais............... :o

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Post by john » Tue 18 Mar 2008 09:06

It's so long since I bought anything in the Hypermarkets in Calais./Boulogne,that I'm out of touch as to what goes on there. I seem to remember that they used to have stacks of cheap crappy wine to attract the Brit day-trippers.Is that still the case (no pun intended...)?

The last few times we've been on the ferry back to Dover,we've noticed a lot fewer "booze run" punters.Presumably the French price hikes in Spirits/fags has a lot to do with it,along with cheap flights. Don't suppose that 1€26 to the £ is going to help much either!

Outie

Post by Outie » Tue 18 Mar 2008 09:17

john wrote:It's so long since I bought anything in the Hypermarkets in Calais./Boulogne,that I'm out of touch as to what goes on there. I seem to remember that they used to have stacks of cheap crappy wine to attract the Brit day-trippers.Is that still the case (no pun intended...)?

The last few times we've been on the ferry back to Dover,we've noticed a lot fewer "booze run" punters.Presumably the French price hikes in Spirits/fags has a lot to do with it,along with cheap flights. Don't suppose that 1€26 to the £ is going to help much either!
It`s been a long time since I too have bought anything other than fuel for car in calais.

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Post by Roger O » Tue 18 Mar 2008 09:29

Last time I was in Calais was February 1961.

Outie

Post by Outie » Tue 18 Mar 2008 09:45

Did you buy any corked wine?

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Post by groslard » Tue 18 Mar 2008 11:16

I have never bought a bottle of corked wine, but have quite often had to send one back in restaurants.
Any explanation?

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Post by john » Tue 18 Mar 2008 12:20

groslard wrote:I have never bought a bottle of corked wine, but have quite often had to send one back in restaurants.
Any explanation?
An interesting question,Groslard. I've very rarely had to send a bottle back in a restaurant either,and when I have it's usually been because it's not the right temperature or similar.

I knew several hoteliers/restaurateurs in the UK,and they sometimes kept wine in poor conditions,often for long periods of time,especially if it was not a wine that sold well. It was not a surpirise that some of their whites were ,how shall I put it, not in the best of nick.

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