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Santiago
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Post by Santiago » Thu 22 Mar 2018 15:41

martyn94 wrote: As for Santiago, I’d be interested to know how he judges it: even (or especially) if he does a vertical tasting of his own wines, he must know a dozen reasons why they differ, apart from their faithfulness to his terroir.
I do vertical tastings from time to time with customers. It's interesting. Sometimes I have made changes to the winemaking choices which we can detect in the wines. However, I'm a pretty hands-off winemaker who doesn't use additions or techniques to modify the juice so the vintage variation does show through.

This, to me is what is fascinating about wine. The subtleties that we can taste that are a result of where and how the grapes were grown or what the winemaker did in the cellar or how long the wine has aged in tank, barrel and bottle.

So much more to it that like/dislike.
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Post by TonyGoodman » Thu 22 Mar 2018 18:30

martyn94 wrote:
Allan wrote:
martyn94 wrote:
TonyGoodman wrote:
That's the beauty of my buy or not buy question. I ignore the blather, labels and 'ologies . Its all about the taste.
Nobody is unresponsive to the bling, whether you like it or loathe it, unless you are tasting blind. And then do it again, a week on the trot.
I don't agree with Tony that 'Its all about the taste' and as far as the bling is concerned, surely it is part of the total package.

There is more to wine that just the taste, there is immense pleasure to be gained from understanding the wine, knowing its history, visiting the domain, comparing it with similar wines, meeting the vigneron, liking the look of the bottle and a whole host of other factors.

Of course the taste is the most important factor, but it isn't the only one.
I agree, but I don’t in any case believe that I have sufficient powers of discrimination to distinguish “the bestâ€￾ which seems to be Tony’s project, nor to reliably see the expression of the terroir which is Santiago’s.

I had a nice meal at Clos des Paulliles last summer with some visiting Australians. It was a lovely day, and a nice view, the food and wine was fine, they were old friends, and we had a long chat. My friends, who are much more aficionados than us, said they liked the wine, but they were possibly just being polite. I bought a case of the Collioure blanc we had drunk, but as a memento of a pleasant occasion, and in part a gift for them, rather than as an absolute judgment. That suits me, but I have no project.

In the 80s we rented a gite for a couple of years behind Banyuls, towards the Col before they paved the road. The last night of our last stay, a quite hairy fire came through, and I spent the night helping the vigneron next door hose down his vines. I have bought their wine much more recently, from his grandson, essentially out of sentiment though it seems to be well regarded, though not extravagantly so (Domaine Berta-Maillol, since you ask). But again I have no project: you have to choose the stuff somehow.

I can’t see how you eliminate that sort of subjectivity (and for my part I wouldn’t want to) without tasting strictly blind, so far as Tony’s project goes. As for Santiago, I’d be interested to know how he judges it: even (or especially) if he does a vertical tasting of his own wines, he must know a dozen reasons why they differ, apart from their faithfulness to his terroir.
Being an unschooled amateur I recognise the only appropriate approach for me was to ask myself do I like it, would I buy it again. If the answer is yes to both I then try to drill down to understand why. Which grapes are involved, where was it grown and who was the winemaker. Assuming I manage the deconstruction I then try to rank it with similar wines on a VFM basis.

Of course back stories, bling, price and circumstances add to the story. I totally agree its an absolute joy to shake the hand of producers, walk through their vines and to taste wines from the cask. However glass in hand I try to ignore all of that and focus on whats being presented. I appreciate its a no frills simplistic pragmatic approach and it has attracted criticism from a small number of producers. However I humbly suggest as its my money producers want from my pocket they need to get on board with the concept. Maybe spend more time crafting their product and less time designing colorful labels packed with poetry and splattered with stamps to tempt us to buy. In fact its got to the point that if a wine has an extra bold ornate crest and more than one stamp I'm immediately suspicious.

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Post by Santiago » Fri 23 Mar 2018 07:42

In defense of winemakers, May I humbly suggest that the choice of using biodynamics, of using herbicide, of when to pick, of what macération regime to follow and which barrels to blend are not all done with the sole purpose of trying to match Tony Goodman’s View of what is well-crafted.

I think this whole “projectâ€￾ would have been more worthwhile for both writer and reader if the initiate had not moved from learning to judging so quickly.
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Post by TonyGoodman » Fri 23 Mar 2018 12:23

Santiago wrote:In defense of winemakers, May I humbly suggest that the choice of using biodynamics, of using herbicide, of when to pick, of what macération regime to follow and which barrels to blend are not all done with the sole purpose of trying to match Tony Goodman’s View of what is well-crafted.

I think this whole “projectâ€￾ would have been more worthwhile for both writer and reader if the initiate had not moved from learning to judging so quickly.

Hi Santiago, thanks for raising that as it allows me to reinforce the key point again. Its good to hear from you, have you been away?

The reviews are not forced, no ambushes. Some producers see them as a way to connect to a consumers. Consumers seem to like them as they provide a guide, reduce the risk of wasting cash buying blind. Its that simple.


However unless I'm mistaken it obvious to me you object to the concept of reviews in POL or perhaps just mine. The latter I assume on the basis of a belief I'm untutored despite being a consumer for almost 50 years. If that’s correct why you and other producers with a similar mindset feel threatened by a few quirky jotting in a local fun mag is beyond me unless they expose a basic lack. Using bling and blather to belittle and coerce consumers into paying premium prices for second grade plonk perhaps. However assuming this is not the case why not let me be found out and be chased back to Waitrose and Wine Soc? Take my CC and never darken local doors again.

To move forward constructively and address your objections would you like to do the next lot of reviews? Perhaps fill in for me over the summer. I’ve had plenty of fun however the car has taken a battering. You’d also be doing me a great service as I could enjoy a few days on the water and we have a steady stream of family and friends visiting. Or perhaps co-write them to correct my alleged ignorance? Now that would be great fun. Apart from long robust debriefing sessions in the summer twilight over a refreshing ale or two the look on some producers faces as we roll up their drive together would be worth the price of admission alone. If so we could ask POL and potential producers of course. Be a nice twist for the Autumn or Winter edition. If you’d like to explore either option further I’m down your way the week after Easter. We could drop in for a chat and sample the 2017 offerings.

In the meantime the project rolls on, the next reviews are going to print now with some surprises and we are talking to a few producers about a slightly different approach to the reviews in future editions. There will also be an end of year report at some stage which may be printed or may just appear here.


Thanks again, have a good weekend.

Tony

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Post by martyn94 » Fri 23 Mar 2018 13:22

Producers feel “threatenedâ€￾ by Tony Goodman? Him and whose army? I was mildly amused by his original project, as an earnest seeker after truth: it was obviously just autobiographical but harmless. His recent fit of grandiosity as the Robert Parker of the P O (complete with delusions of persecution) was amazingly sudden, and quite sad to a disinterested observer.

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Post by TonyGoodman » Fri 23 Mar 2018 17:38

martyn94 wrote:Producers feel “threatenedâ€￾ by Tony Goodman? Him and whose army? I was mildly amused by his original project, as an earnest seeker after truth: it was obviously just autobiographical but harmless. His recent fit of grandiosity as the Robert Parker of the P O (complete with delusions of persecution) was amazingly sudden, and quite sad to a disinterested observer.
So why bother logging on and responding if you are so disinterested? Why not just ignore the reviews? Eventually I'll settle of a handful of brands I like and fade away, its a short term project not a career FFS.

What intrigues me is there must be something in the local wine ecosystem which has producers scared and frightened. It certainly can't be my light weight reviews yet some PM's I receive are unbelievable. Is it that bad out there?

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Post by Webdoc » Fri 23 Mar 2018 17:57

martyn94 wrote:(complete with delusions of persecution)
Perhaps not a delusion if he's been getting hostile PMs. And all because he's expressing a genuine curiosity about local wines.

He's a volunteer who doesn't get paid and, by his own admission, will not write a negative comment about any wine he dislikes. And he doesn't claim to be the second Robert Parker.

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Post by martyn94 » Fri 23 Mar 2018 19:28

TonyGoodman wrote:
martyn94 wrote:Producers feel “threatenedâ€￾ by Tony Goodman? Him and whose army? I was mildly amused by his original project, as an earnest seeker after truth: it was obviously just autobiographical but harmless. His recent fit of grandiosity as the Robert Parker of the P O (complete with delusions of persecution) was amazingly sudden, and quite sad to a disinterested observer.
So why bother logging on and responding if you are so disinterested? Why not just ignore the reviews? Eventually I'll settle of a handful of brands I like and fade away, its a short term project not a career FFS.

What intrigues me is there must be something in the local wine ecosystem which has producers scared and frightened. It certainly can't be my light weight reviews yet some PM's I receive are unbelievable. Is it that bad out there?
I had feared that there might be something like this going on. It might seem hard to believe, but I have never read one of your reviews. I prefer to make my own mistakes. So I have never sent you disobliging pms about them. It must be unpleasant to get them, but they do not prove that you are shaking the wine trade here to its foundations. Maybe people just don’t agree with you.

What does seem clear is that this topic is getting seriously overheated. I don’t have the material to judge who is in the right, if there is a right, and I sure as hell don’t want it. Let’s just all trap up for a while.

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Post by TonyGoodman » Fri 23 Mar 2018 19:57

martyn94 wrote:
TonyGoodman wrote:
martyn94 wrote:Producers feel “threatenedâ€￾ by Tony Goodman? Him and whose army? I was mildly amused by his original project, as an earnest seeker after truth: it was obviously just autobiographical but harmless. His recent fit of grandiosity as the Robert Parker of the P O (complete with delusions of persecution) was amazingly sudden, and quite sad to a disinterested observer.
So why bother logging on and responding if you are so disinterested? Why not just ignore the reviews? Eventually I'll settle of a handful of brands I like and fade away, its a short term project not a career FFS.

What intrigues me is there must be something in the local wine ecosystem which has producers scared and frightened. It certainly can't be my light weight reviews yet some PM's I receive are unbelievable. Is it that bad out there?
I had feared that there might be something like this going on. It might seem hard to believe, but I have never read one of your reviews. I prefer to make my own mistakes. So I have never sent you disobliging pms about them. It must be unpleasant to get them, but they do not prove that you are shaking the wine trade here to its foundations. Maybe people just don’t agree with you.

What does seem clear is that this topic is getting seriously overheated. I don’t have the material to judge who is in the right, if there is a right, and I sure as hell don’t want it. Let’s just all trap up for a while.

Totally agree and have said as much to others, I do like a bit of banter however it can reach a point where its no longer appropriate. Mind you I do think I have a certain skill with words, Hemmingwayesque. Something which totally surprised me.

have a good weekend

Tony

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Post by Allan » Fri 23 Mar 2018 20:13

Whether anyone reads the reviews or not, Tony’s posts have generated a great deal of activity on the forum.

Like Martyn, I haven’t read any of Tony’s reviews and also like to make my own mistakes. I do however like to read reviews, if only to see if I agree with them.

I don’t actually know where to find Tony’s reviews, perhaps someone could point me in the right direction.

I don’t however hold with the point of never writing a bad review, if you find a wine bad, why not say so?

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Post by Kate » Fri 23 Mar 2018 20:28

Just to keep the balance for unpleasant PMs received by Tony, I have received several PMs, emails and comments about Tony’s reviews: ‘fun’, ‘prompted me to make an afternoon of it, and visit to a winery’, ‘tbh I usually buy my wine from supermarket because our French isn’t too up to scratch but we might look if mr g has the same tastes as us’. .....and a few other comments from friends who enjoy the reviews but know that Tony isn’t claiming to be an expert - quite the opposite. P-O Life mag is in its 14th year. I must have developed a bit of a nose for what works by now or I’d be a total fraud and the mag would have gone to the wall long ago...and this new section is popular..... and it certainly gives people something to talk about LOL 😂 !

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Post by TonyGoodman » Fri 23 Mar 2018 20:49

Allan wrote:Whether anyone reads the reviews or not, Tony’s posts have generated a great deal of activity on the forum.

Like Martyn, I haven’t read any of Tony’s reviews and also like to make my own mistakes. I do however like to read reviews, if only to see if I agree with them.

I don’t actually know where to find Tony’s reviews, perhaps someone could point me in the right direction.

I don’t however hold with the point of never writing a bad review, if you find a wine bad, why not say so?

The reviews are on line at PO Lifes website and in the printed mag. Autographed copies are avail by appt or most Thursday afternoons in Les Halles covered markets Perpignan after my French language class for the price of a well deserved very acceptable white wine.


re positive only reviews
I'm an amateur and don't feel it appropriate I make negative comments. If it goes down the sink its forgotten. Also I don't have the necessary DNA, life really is too short and I leave the dirty work to well paid experts.

Thanks all for the supportive PM's, much appreciated.

Have a great weekend all.

Tony

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Post by Santiago » Sat 24 Mar 2018 10:52

I don't know and can't really imagine who these "very unpleasant people" are. I can't see why a wine producer or anyone else in the local wine trade would bother writing an angry email to Tony to complain about him or his methods.

However, I think it should be made clear how the reviews are carried out. Although Tony is not being paid for the reviews, there is some commitment required from the wine producer to receive Tony and provide samples. There is also the question of paying for advertising in PO Life.

We producers get requests almost every day to send samples to competitions, to partake in salons, to donate wine for some event, to advertise in various publications, to send samples to bloggers in return for positive reviews etc.

We have to make choices which ones to follow and which ones to decline based on the perceived returns. I've not been approached in a formal way by Tony (other than the jokey banter above) so I'm not sure how it works but it is not simply a guy buying a bottle from a shop or producer and sharing his personal opinion via the magazine.

Maybe that is why some producers are willing to go along with it and others have decided it's not the way they seek publicity.

For those reading and not contributing, pretty much all the wineries in the PO are open for tastings to the public. So anyone can come and taste before buying.

Also there is a great opportunity coming up to both taste some local prodcuers' wines and help the Agricultural Lycée in Rivesaltes to raise some mony for a field trip.

https://anglophone-direct.com/event/wine-tasting-salon/
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Post by Allan » Sat 24 Mar 2018 11:02

Santiago wrote: For those reading and not contributing, pretty much all the wineries in the PO are open for tastings to the public. So anyone can come and taste before buying.
This has always intrigued me, why would a substantial enterprise be bothered with a casual person turning up to taste wine and possibly buy the odd bottle or even a case?

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Post by TonyGoodman » Sat 24 Mar 2018 11:19

Allan wrote:
Santiago wrote: For those reading and not contributing, pretty much all the wineries in the PO are open for tastings to the public. So anyone can come and taste before buying.
This has always intrigued me, why would a substantial enterprise be bothered with a casual person turning up to taste wine and possibly buy the odd bottle or even a case?

Good point, especially when my experiance has been there is usually no overt pressure to buy anything. The costs involved in building and maintaining some of the visitor centres I see would be substantial. Lafage's for example is magnificent. I know some vineyards try to double up as wedding reception venues, some hold music soiree.

Next time I'm on site and an appropriate opportunity arises I'll ask.

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Post by Allan » Sat 24 Mar 2018 11:23

I have heard it said that if they offer tastings then they can write off a quantity of wine as far as the Douanes are concerned, add to that the French love of folding money and there might be an answer.

On the other hand I might be barking up completely the wrong tree.

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Post by Santiago » Sat 24 Mar 2018 11:40

Allan wrote:
Santiago wrote: For those reading and not contributing, pretty much all the wineries in the PO are open for tastings to the public. So anyone can come and taste before buying.
This has always intrigued me, why would a substantial enterprise be bothered with a casual person turning up to taste wine and possibly buy the odd bottle or even a case?
Because it all adds up. Most people who come to taste at my winery, even though I don't have a swanky tasting facility, will buy cases, not bottles. They will often become regular customers and form the core of the important bouche-a-l'oreille network that supports our local sales.

For a Cave Coop it may make even more sense because the price they receive from a direct customer buying a bottle is several times that which they receive for selling their wine in bulk to a negociant.
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Post by Santiago » Sat 24 Mar 2018 11:44

Allan wrote:I have heard it said that if they offer tastings then they can write off a quantity of wine as far as the Douanes are concerned, add to that the French love of folding money and there might be an answer.

On the other hand I might be barking up completely the wrong tree.
While I'm sure there are some businesses that try this, it's pretty difficult and would amount to a tiny percentage of the volume at the risk of going to prison.

Do you know what the douanes charge on a bottle of wine sold? 3 cents.
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Post by TonyGoodman » Sat 24 Mar 2018 11:48

Allan wrote:I have heard it said that if they offer tastings then they can write off a quantity of wine as far as the Douanes are concerned, add to that the French love of folding money and there might be an answer.

On the other hand I might be barking up completely the wrong tree.
Those could be a factors for some of the smaller operations who scratch around for ever last sou however bigger well established operations such as Lafage, Abbe Rous, Cazes et al must spends hundreds of thousands on their centres then there are staff costs. The trend continues across into slightly more bespoke operators such as La Perdrix and Tramontagne who have recently built have built some very pleasant facilities and there is no suggestion they are nothing less than well run professional operations.

I should be down their way after Easter so I'll ask. I suspect I'll need to recharge the cellar as we have visitors from a cold and wet UK coming to thaw out. The weather there makes ours look almost tropical.
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Post by Webdoc » Sat 24 Mar 2018 12:57

Santiago wrote:to send samples to bloggers in return for positive reviews etc.
Was that a slip of the pen or is a positive review part of the deal? Just curious.

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Post by Kate » Sat 24 Mar 2018 13:32

Just for the record, there is no commitment and the reviews are totally free. Tony has actually paid himself on one occasion for the privilege of reviewing what turned out to be a very mediocre wine as the owner didn’t see why he should give it away for a review.
Sometimes, very occasionally, someone comes back to us and asks to advertise because their reviews provoked a spurt of business from P-O Life, but that’s rare.
As you say Allan, it also gives something to talk about which can only be good. Here are the last two from P-O Life magazine.

https://anglophone-direct.com/wine-club ... nd-tasted/
https://anglophone-direct.com/wine-club-tried-tasted-2/

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Post by TonyGoodman » Sat 24 Mar 2018 13:55

Kate wrote:Just for the record, there is no commitment and the reviews are totally free. Tony has actually paid himself on one occasion for the privilege of reviewing what turned out to be a very mediocre wine as the owner didn’t see why he should give it away for a review.
Sometimes, very occasionally, someone comes back to us and asks to advertise because their reviews provoked a spurt of business from P-O Life, but that’s rare.
As you say Allan, it also gives something to talk about which can only be good. Here are the last two from P-O Life magazine.

https://anglophone-direct.com/wine-club ... nd-tasted/
https://anglophone-direct.com/wine-club-tried-tasted-2/

What can I say, I'm as soft touch. It was a pleasant lad with a new operation, new plantings of non typical wines and I wanted to see what it was like. The wine needed time, a WIP so its down for a revisit next year and I suspect the 21E was the first he had seen for a while. Its important to encourage the young.

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Post by martyn94 » Sat 24 Mar 2018 16:44

Santiago wrote:
Allan wrote:
Santiago wrote: For those reading and not contributing, pretty much all the wineries in the PO are open for tastings to the public. So anyone can come and taste before buying.
This has always intrigued me, why would a substantial enterprise be bothered with a casual person turning up to taste wine and possibly buy the odd bottle or even a case?
Because it all adds up. Most people who come to taste at my winery, even though I don't have a swanky tasting facility, will buy cases, not bottles. They will often become regular customers and form the core of the important bouche-a-l'oreille network that supports our local sales.

For a Cave Coop it may make even more sense because the price they receive from a direct customer buying a bottle is several times that which they receive for selling their wine in bulk to a negociant.
This makes perfect sense to me, as I’d expect. I very rarely see “advertisingâ€￾ for the sort of wines we have round here, but anyone awake tries to market them in whatever ways suit them, and they can afford.

Once or twice a year, we visit friends in the Lot, and pass by the Co-op winery, and shop, for AOC Marcillac (between Rodez and Décazeville). Even when good, it is “un peu spécialâ€￾ - it’s made from a weird grape called Fer, or Mansois. And twenty years ago the quality was at best chancy. But I’ve learnt to like it: it’s the nearest thing to the local wine where I stay. And they seem to have sorted the quality out.

We always buy a few (a few cases that is, as Santiago has said) which must help cover their investment in their quite fancy shop. More to the point, I hope, we probably only drink a quarter of it: the rest goes down other people’s throats, or as gifts if they like it. And hopefully they buy some more when they see it, or are even moved to buy it online, eg here
http://www.vigneronsduvallon.com/fr/bou ... etail.html

There are others, but they are the biggest.

And much the same must go, mutatis mutandis, for anyone who runs a “cellar doorâ€￾, as Australians say.

But I’m offering no guarantees: as I have said, my choice of wine is at best haphazard, and often made primarily out of sentiment.

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Post by Santiago » Mon 26 Mar 2018 12:50

Just read this funny post on a Wine Blogger's site. Quite topical to this discussion ....

http://www.wineanorak.com/wineblog/unca ... ng-critics
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Post by TonyGoodman » Mon 26 Mar 2018 17:25

Santiago wrote:Just read this funny post on a Wine Blogger's site. Quite topical to this discussion ....

http://www.wineanorak.com/wineblog/unca ... ng-critics

Thanks, while certainly humorous the reality is its quite disturbing as those costs have to be pushed onto consumers or else producers will be bled dry.

How accurate are those costs for reviews. Do all fairs even the most humble charge producers to appear and charge consumers to attend. I assumed they relied on the entry fee and a bit of sponsorship. To get a local perspective a few producers attended the Paris fair recently that was written up in the L’Independent. What sort of costs would be involved? Are costs related to size?. How much can a local producer who attends an average number of wine fairs per year expect to net on a say a 30e bottle or is it impossible to calculate? A rough bracket perhaps would be best, just to give me an idea of what both producers and consumers have to carry.

As consumers what can we do to try to get more money into your pockets or is there no easy solution? Would boycotting fairs have any impact for example.

Any links to independent studies which show the splits the various parties receive would also be useful. It might make an interesting lead for the Autumn reviews. Nothing ponderous but suitably weighty.

Why not start a fresh thread with this topic? We may get industry insiders contributing.

Tony

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Post by martyn94 » Mon 26 Mar 2018 19:03

[quote="

As consumers what can we do to try to get more money into your pockets or is there no easy solution? Would boycotting fairs have any impact for example.

[/quote]

We get money into the hands of winegrowers by buying the stuff, and drinking it, and serving and recommending and giving it to other people. To do that, we have to become aware that the wines exist. Vignerons use the means that seem best for them, and affordable, to achieve that. They are grown-ups: if they are strung along one year, on the lines of Santiago’s droll link, they will know better next year.

I don’t know whether you’ve ever been to the Salon de Paris. I’ve not been for many years, but believe me it’s a seventeen-ring circus, over many hectares, and visiting civilians certainly pay to get in. No amount of boycotts by the PO Expat Winebuyers Liberation Front is even going to make them laugh.

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Post by Allan » Mon 26 Mar 2018 19:18

TonyGoodman wrote:
Why not start a fresh thread with this topic? We may get industry insiders contributing.

Tony
Probably because nobody would be remotely interested in it.

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Post by TonyGoodman » Mon 26 Mar 2018 20:00

martyn94 wrote:[quote="

As consumers what can we do to try to get more money into your pockets or is there no easy solution? Would boycotting fairs have any impact for example.
We get money into the hands of winegrowers by buying the stuff, and drinking it, and serving and recommending and giving it to other people. To do that, we have to become aware that the wines exist. Vignerons use the means that seem best for them, and affordable, to achieve that. They are grown-ups: if they are strung along one year, on the lines of Santiago’s droll link, they will know better next year.

I don’t know whether you’ve ever been to the Salon de Paris. I’ve not been for many years, but believe me it’s a seventeen-ring circus, over many hectares, and visiting civilians certainly pay to get in. No amount of boycotts by the PO Expat Winebuyers Liberation Front is even going to make them laugh.[/quote]


nor tremble in their boots I suspect. However it was a collective we, as in if all consumers all ceased attending all fairs would that cause a re-alignment of costs to producers. I suspect not as the professional reviewers would pick up the slack. As you say producers seem to be happy passing over staggering amounts of money, which is included in the price consumers pay.

Bringing it back to a local level as I understand it Languedoc -Roussillon dramatically reduced the volume of raw grape juice produced. I wonder if there are any stats available on how that affected baseline incomes. It would also be interesting to get an idea of what the local industry returns to the people who actually make the stuff. the people we are interested in supporting. Putting that information in the public domain, even on a modest forum such as this may change peoples buying patterns, may make a difference. Maybe increase the percentage of cellar door sales especially for the smaller operators.

Allan
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Post by Allan » Mon 26 Mar 2018 21:12

[quote="TonyGoodman]However it was a collective we, as in if all consumers all ceased attending all fairs would that cause a re-alignment of costs to producers. I suspect not as the professional reviewers would pick up the slack. As you say producers seem to be happy passing over staggering amounts of money, which is included in the price consumers pay.

Bringing it back to a local level as I understand it Languedoc -Roussillon dramatically reduced the volume of raw grape juice produced. I wonder if there are any stats available on how that affected baseline incomes. It would also be interesting to get an idea of what the local industry returns to the people who actually make the stuff. the people we are interested in supporting. Putting that information in the public domain, even on a modest forum such as this may change peoples buying patterns, may make a difference. Maybe increase the percentage of cellar door sales especially for the smaller operators.[/quote]

Tony, I am starting to worry that you are losing your grip on reality.

Firstly, businesses spend money on marketing to increase their sales and their profitability, they don’t intentionally spend it to use up surplus cash.

I, and I suspect many others, enjoy local wines because of a connection to them, I can visit them and understand the terroir. I have to say that I have no interest in increasing their sales or their profitability.

I wish success to any business that makes a good product but I think that analysing their spend/yield etc is bordering on the absurd.

martyn94
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Post by martyn94 » Mon 26 Mar 2018 21:51

TonyGoodman wrote:
martyn94 wrote:[quote="

As consumers what can we do to try to get more money into your pockets or is there no easy solution? Would boycotting fairs have any impact for example.
We get money into the hands of winegrowers by buying the stuff, and drinking it, and serving and recommending and giving it to other people. To do that, we have to become aware that the wines exist. Vignerons use the means that seem best for them, and affordable, to achieve that. They are grown-ups: if they are strung along one year, on the lines of Santiago’s droll link, they will know better next year.

I don’t know whether you’ve ever been to the Salon de Paris. I’ve not been for many years, but believe me it’s a seventeen-ring circus, over many hectares, and visiting civilians certainly pay to get in. No amount of boycotts by the PO Expat Winebuyers Liberation Front is even going to make them laugh.

nor tremble in their boots I suspect. However it was a collective we, as in if all consumers all ceased attending all fairs would that cause a re-alignment of costs to producers. I suspect not as the professional reviewers would pick up the slack. As you say producers seem to be happy passing over staggering amounts of money, which is included in the price consumers pay.

Bringing it back to a local level as I understand it Languedoc -Roussillon dramatically reduced the volume of raw grape juice produced. I wonder if there are any stats available on how that affected baseline incomes. It would also be interesting to get an idea of what the local industry returns to the people who actually make the stuff. the people we are interested in supporting. Putting that information in the public domain, even on a modest forum such as this may change peoples buying patterns, may make a difference. Maybe increase the percentage of cellar door sales especially for the smaller operators.[/quote]

I do think it’s a bit bizarre that you have just discovered, and think you will influence, changes in the pattern of wine production down here that have been going on pretty smartly for about the last 50 years or so. It would be a kindness to all of us if you pulled your neck in, quite a lot and for as long as you can manage.

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