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[/quote] The biggest problem IMHO is that many members are apathetic and don't bother to take part in the decision making processes. They then blame "The EU" for making decisions that they don't like[/quote]

Quite. I’m struck by the absurdity of the British public voting for UKIP MEPS, with the result that we’re represented in the European Parliament by people don’t believe in it (though that doesn’t stop them drawing generous expenses for doing b****r all).

GrahamC wrote: ↑Fri 30 Nov 2018 17:08

martyn94 wrote: ↑Sun 25 Nov 2018 21:53 Can you point to any reliable source of news that says anything even remotely like this? As things stand, we are headed out of the EU, pretty soon, whether we or M Macron like it or not. Assuming it doesn’t all go tits up in the HoC next week (and even that of course doesn’t stop us leaving the EU: it just makes the shambles even worse)

When an avowed Europhile starts talking about a “European Empire”, I start to doubt their sanity, or at least their grasp of English.

And why on earth shouldn’t other states try to “punish us” for “exercising our treaty rights”, if they don’t like the results and are in a position to punish us for producing them? International relations are not the vicar’s tea-party. But since you are, yet again, talking in riddles, it was a mistake on my part to rise to the bait.

You can research the Macron quote for yourself Martyn. It’s in the Guardian and the Telegraph, so you can choose your political flavour. Both left and right interpret his remarks in the same way.

And while you’re at it, read the COD definitions for Empires and Federations. You’ll quickly see which most closely describes the current European governmental structure. It might then help you to understand why some pro-EU ‘luminaries’ now openly refer to the term.

I believe it was you who described the EU broadly as a benign muddle, or similar. Laughable, now that we've seen how it’s acting towards the UK.

There was a famous (though possibly apochryphal) headline in Times in the 1930s

“Fog in the Channel; Continent cut off”.

That seems to about the size of Graham C’s (and many other Brexiters’ to the extent that they think at all) view of the world. We join their club, we choose to leave their club. On neither occasion with a gun to our backs. We don’t get some fantasy deal that we were never going to get (from 27 other sovereign states who none of them owe us a living): so we’re being punished.

Wake up and look at the map: it isn’t all pink anymore, like it was when I was very small.

A "Poll of Polls" has just published the results in the U.K.

Remain: 42%
Leave: 58%, split as follows;
33% who want to leave without a deal, 12% who want to leave with the present deal and 13% who want to leave with a re-negotiated deal (The Corbyn option)
Whichever way you look at it, the majority want to leave in some form or other.
I know signals have been sent to the EU that if they don't come up with a "Backstop" legal guarantee,they can kiss the "Divorce money" goodbye. Germany AND France are panicking because they know what a 40Bn Euro black hole will do to the 2019 budget.

Well, I don’t know where you heard about this “poll of polls” - pretty much all the recent polls show a majority for “remain” (https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/i ... pport-2-2/).

Also, any poll which includes “leave with a re-negotiated deal” as an option should be treated with suspicion, as at present no such deal exists. If, as seems almost certain, a more favourable deal can’t be negotiated (despite Corbyn’s claims), you can’t assume that those in favour of this would still want to leave.

martyn94 wrote: ↑Mon 10 Dec 2018 15:03

GrahamC wrote: ↑Fri 30 Nov 2018 17:08

martyn94 wrote: ↑Sun 25 Nov 2018 21:53 Can you point to any reliable source of news that says anything even remotely like this? As things stand, we are headed out of the EU, pretty soon, whether we or M Macron like it or not. Assuming it doesn’t all go tits up in the HoC next week (and even that of course doesn’t stop us leaving the EU: it just makes the shambles even worse)

When an avowed Europhile starts talking about a “European Empire”, I start to doubt their sanity, or at least their grasp of English.

And why on earth shouldn’t other states try to “punish us” for “exercising our treaty rights”, if they don’t like the results and are in a position to punish us for producing them? International relations are not the vicar’s tea-party. But since you are, yet again, talking in riddles, it was a mistake on my part to rise to the bait.

You can research the Macron quote for yourself Martyn. It’s in the Guardian and the Telegraph, so you can choose your political flavour. Both left and right interpret his remarks in the same way.

And while you’re at it, read the COD definitions for Empires and Federations. You’ll quickly see which most closely describes the current European governmental structure. It might then help you to understand why some pro-EU ‘luminaries’ now openly refer to the term.

I believe it was you who described the EU broadly as a benign muddle, or similar. Laughable, now that we've seen how it’s acting towards the UK.

There was a famous (though possibly apochryphal) headline in Times in the 1930s

“Fog in the Channel; Continent cut off”.

That seems to about the size of Graham C’s (and many other Brexiters’ to the extent that they think at all) view of the world. We join their club, we choose to leave their club. On neither occasion with a gun to our backs. We don’t get some fantasy deal that we were never going to get (from 27 other sovereign states who none of them owe us a living): so we’re being punished.

Wake up and look at the map: it isn’t all pink anymore, like it was when I was very small.

And there we have it! The standard socialist response. If you don’t agree with my socialist views you must be stupid. If you believe in a better form of Europe via Brexit then you must be a colonel blimp.

The fact is Martyn over the last couple of years you’ve been unable to advance any reason whatsoever for staying in the EU other than rose tinted tosh. And unwilling on any occasion to engage in discucssion of the facts. All you ever do is sneer at opinions which don’t match your own.

Like many Remainers you seem to believe that everything begins and ends with some sort of liberal higher duty to be a good EU citizen, without ever looking closely at what the EU has morphed into, without ever questioning the democratic deficit, without ever challenging the untrammelled corruption and without ever pausing to think about the consequence of pursuing federalism without a popular mandate.