consumer rights

mand · Post by **mand** » Mon 16 Jan 2012 11:34

Anyone have any idea of the consumer rights in France

We bought from Castorama 2 electronic parrafin heaters.

brought them home plugged one in downstairs and the other upstairs, after just over an hour they switch off with an error code displaying.

We took them back to castorama who wouldn't refund us but said they had to go for inspection/repair at their workshop

the man at their workshop said that the code it was displaying was because it has a built in Co2 detector and therefore would need oxygen so open a window for 3 minutes per hour.

we are now having a cold spell and even if we leave a window open all the time (which is defeating the object letting cold air in just so the machine might work)but the heaters are still going off, we have all the doors open downstairs and upstairs plus a window on each level our house is 121 sqm .

i think we need a refund but castorma said it must be our house is perhaps too small and won't refund, but i feel these heaters aren't fit for pupose.

any ideas?

thanks

Colin L · Post by **Colin L** » Mon 16 Jan 2012 11:49

If the heater has a built-in CO detector and it is detecting a build-up of CO you would be ill-advised to ignore the warning, don't you think? It's a silent killer that stuff. Eg http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15267905

I don 't know French law, but in the UK the retailer has no obligation to refund for goods that are in working order but which you decide don't suit you after all. Discovering that your room isn't well enough ventilated could, it seems to me, be in that category. You could, however, perhaps pursue the possibility that there is a fault in the heaters that is causing them to give off the CO. The gas occurs because of incomplete burning of the fuel so there may be a case for arguing that the heater should be burning the fuel more efficiently and not giving off that much CO in the first place.

Just a layman's thoughts, though - I'm not a lawyer.

mand · Post by **mand** » Mon 16 Jan 2012 12:39

thanks for the reply

We bought the heaters with the C02 sensors especially for safety reasons, but for it to keep failing even when there is a window open constant to ensure it has oxygen and it is still failing then i think it isn't fit for purpose, we have tried everything but to no avail they will run possibly 1.5 hours and then trips out and the house is freezing because we have the windows open

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Mon 16 Jan 2012 12:50

I know it doesnt help but I have several friends who live permanently or partially in mobile homes and they all use them with no problem even though its a lot smaller space.

mand · Post by **mand** » Mon 16 Jan 2012 12:57

our friends use one too and they have it in a small kitchen with the door shut and it's like a furnace in there but cosidering we have all doors open plus our downstairs is pretty open plan but they keep going off but all conforama keep saying is our house must be too small (total rubbish) i think it's a fault with this make or something.

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Mon 16 Jan 2012 14:05

Maybe the problem is you bought them from Castorama and are talking to Conforama

Seriously, are you definitely using the correct parafin and have you followed the instructions to the letter? As Colin says, if the parafin isn't burning completely it could cause the heater to trip. If it was a fault I'd expect one to work and one not. Maybe do a search for the manufacturer and the problem and see what comes up.

mand · Post by **mand** » Mon 16 Jan 2012 14:14

definately using the right paraffin at the moment we are trying to reach 18 degrees the unit downstairs is only reaching 15 and then tripping out and we have the window wide open, definately not worth €200 per unit...worked ok in milder weather but because it needs to burn longer to get to it's set temperature it can't acheive it and is tripping out even tried setting it for the desired temperature of 16 degrees and still no joy.

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Mon 16 Jan 2012 15:03

From something I have just read check the air vents at the back of the heaters are clean and free from dust. If they arent then take backs off heaters and clean the vents. If they have been boxed at Castorama I cant think there should be a problem.

interiors66 · Post by **interiors66** » Mon 16 Jan 2012 15:58

i cant help you with your heaters , but i can highlight the "lack of " after sales service at castorama.
i once bought an electric sander ,quite an expensive one @€130. after 2 hrs of use it stopped working.jackie took it back to the store for me and they asked what i had been using it for , she replied sanding down filler on walls,their reply was that the machine was not designed for that ???and they refused to give a refund or exchange, after 2 hrs we had to settle for a credit note.
be warned!

Post by **Kate** » Mon 16 Jan 2012 16:20

Second you on that Dave. When we bought an expensive new flatscreen from Conforama (same thing more or less I think) and it was faulty, they said it had to break down three times before they would exchange it. They took it away to mend, kept it for around 4 weeks, we had to pick it up, it still woudnt work.... the whole thing was a nightmare. In the end, after second repair, it was OK but scren blew 10 days after one year guarentee out. We just wrote it off. My philosophy with many of these firms is 'Expect nothing, then anhything is a bonus"
Talking of which, much of it is apparently to do with bonuses ie they have targets to reach and a returned item is taken off their bonus or something similar.

mand · Post by **mand** » Mon 16 Jan 2012 16:34

the vents are clean, just doesn't like working when cold (just like the local council)perhaps thats the problem it's french and likes to strike...lol

opas · Post by **opas** » Tue 17 Jan 2012 08:05

Just a thought, you say you have friends with the same heater, why not do a "swap" for a couple of days, see if you get the same reaction from their heater and vice versa, that way you will have a better idea of whether it is your house or the heater.

Colin L · Post by **Colin L** » Tue 17 Jan 2012 08:53

That's a good idea. Failing that, you could even put the heater outside for an hour and if it goes off you have pretty good evidence the heater is at fault. Rooms don't come much bigger!

mand · Post by **mand** » Tue 17 Jan 2012 09:10

Thanks for the replies.
no chance of doing a swap with our friend, she's french and doesn't trust anyone with her items especially not a heating unit...she might think we'll blow that up and ours she thinks is faulty so no chance od her plugging it in at her place, we asked her about our rights she just shrugged and said she normally just buys another (perhaps one reason why after sales service is so bad if french people are unwilling to complain).

we had a look on the internet last night and it seems there are lots of people with the same sort of problem and not just with our make of heater, they reckon the C02 sensor is too sensitive and the solution bypass the sensor ( i am not going to go down that route, i don't know if they have perhaps bought seperate c02 alarms but it sounds too dangerous for my liking).

I just wish i had something that i could go armed with back to castorama detailing my consumer rights.

it is certainly different in the UK, I had a new tumble dryer out of comet under the white goods act (they didn't give in easily but eventually had to) even though by that point the dryer was 3 years old.

Post by **Kate** » Tue 17 Jan 2012 10:36

Not sure if this will be any use Mand, but I met some people just before Christmas who are setting up an association to stand up for the rights of foreigners here in the P-O as they feel that they are regularly bullied and denied their rights. They are French, but fluent English speakers, and have lawyers and civil rights people amongst their group, so it might be worth giving them a ring. They have given me permission to post their details but I have doctored email address just in case, so you will need to change it back.
Best of luck.

Philipppe and Marie Christine Rius
pmcriusatgmaildotcom
06 16 46 19 48

russell · Post by **russell** » Tue 17 Jan 2012 11:13

Just a point of information: CO2 (carbon dioxide) is not poisonous and is given off when anything containing carbon (like oil) is burned. CO (carbon monoxide) is however very poisonous and has no smell so it can catch you out.

If you disable the sensor in the heater be sure that you have a working carbon monoxide alarm in your room.

Another problem with this type of heating is that the heating oil contains hydrogen and therefore the exhaust contains large amounts of moisture which can cause damp problems such as mildew on the walls unless you have adequate ventilation.

Russell.

mand · Post by **mand** » Tue 17 Jan 2012 11:44

Thanks for that, Hubby is french (but hasn't a clue on french law having lived in the uk for all his adult life) but every french person we have asked about consumer rights just tend to shrug their shoulders, I am wondering if none of them ever complain.

We had read the consumer law here was the same as the uk but retailers fail to implement it, just can't find anything that helps us with a over sensitive detector, If it was the case that the unit just didn't work we would probably get a refund but because it works to a degree it's very difficult to find out what our rights are.

yesterday we had to give up on the units because even with the window fully open both units kept cutting with the same error code and the house was only 14 degrees.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Tue 17 Jan 2012 14:42

Why not try running them outdoors, if they fail there is is obviously noything to do with your house.

I find total intransigence generally works in the shops here. Refuse to be fobbed off and progressively move up the management chain.

Wear them down before they wear you down

You could also try their parent company Kingfisher who are based in England
Try writing to the chairman www.kingfisher.com

Nigel and Karen · Post by **Nigel and Karen** » Thu 26 Jan 2012 15:42

i had the same problem as you, i bought a zippo (brand) and have had no problems for over 3 yrs so i bought a non brand for £199 from Weldom at Argeles and the sencer was to sensative it just made it useless even outside it would cut out i took it back and they changed it for a Zippo 50euro more, but this in the same room with the same fuel is great.

mand · Post by **mand** » Thu 26 Jan 2012 16:04

Nigel and Karen wrote:i had the same problem as you, i bought a zippo (brand) and have had no problems for over 3 yrs so i bought a non brand for £199 from Weldom at Argeles and the sencer was to sensative it just made it useless even outside it would cut out i took it back and they changed it for a Zippo 50euro more, but this in the same room with the same fuel is great.

Castorama keep saying they need ventilation, dreading it when the temperature drops next week because even with the window open 1 inch the units cut out they only work fine if the window is open fully, rather defeating the object because if such cold air is blowing in then we have no chance of heating the room plus all the fuel the unit is consuming trying to achieve required temperature, we would happily pay an extra €50 if they would change them for a better make.well done on managing to get any where with these retailers.

opas · Post by **opas** » Thu 26 Jan 2012 16:48

could I propose something else? Go to the store with your heater and set it up!

Take any paperwork you have exchanged between you and them.

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Thu 26 Jan 2012 17:37

My thoughts exactly Opas. Castorama are particularly bad for customer service and after sales. I've not been to them for about 4 years, always prefer Leroy Merlin. But going in there with your heaters and forcing them to test them should persuade even them.

opas · Post by **opas** » Thu 26 Jan 2012 17:44

We had to take a chainsaw back to Casto, because it had lost its power to cut, they tried to sell us a new chain! Then they said that the man from that dept was on holiday for 2 weeks so they could not deal with us, this being mid winter and a chainsaw was necessary.......
Eventually they did exchange it, we would sooner have had a refund, but this one has been ok, fingers crossed!

We have not bought anything of any value off them since.

mand · Post by **mand** » Thu 26 Jan 2012 18:38

we took one of the heaters to the store they sent it for testing(we told them it works fine for the first 1.5 hours and then cuts out anytime after that and to have the window wide open was making the room cold, last cold spell a few weeks ago it still cut out with the window on tilt and turn and with the window fully opened the room temperature struggled to get higher than the 14 degrees) yet castorama said it works fine in their huge warhouse and that perhaps our house is too small, our house is over 120 sqm.

Owens88 · Post by **Owens88** » Thu 26 Jan 2012 19:53

Kate and others who have given up.

Do the credit card consumer laws not still apply in France?
John

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Thu 26 Jan 2012 23:57

mand wrote:we took one of the heaters to the store they sent it for testing(we told them it works fine for the first 1.5 hours and then cuts out anytime after that and to have the window wide open was making the room cold, last cold spell a few weeks ago it still cut out with the window on tilt and turn and with the window fully opened the room temperature struggled to get higher than the 14 degrees) yet castorama said it works fine in their huge warhouse and that perhaps our house is too small, our house is over 120 sqm.

Castorama say on their website that the heaters are for an area of 48sqM so if your room is smaller than that then they may have a point. If the area in which one heater keeps cutting out is more than that then tell them it dosn't do what they say it does.

Post by **Kate** » Fri 27 Jan 2012 09:32

Do the credit card consumer laws not still apply in France?

Good point. If you've bought with a credit card (as opposed to a carte bleue) I would imagine that they do apply, but for example in my case, they were prepared each time to take back and try and repair, just wouldn't give me an exchange or my money back, which you could say is showing willing. It's an area of life here that we should really explore more, as I know quite a few people who have found it easier just to give up and write and item off, than keep on banging head against the proverbial brick wall.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Fri 27 Jan 2012 10:13

I found this on the web, it is the European directive that applied in all EC countries

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 016:FR:PDF

An english version is here?

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/sit ... 120016.pdf

But surely in Mand's case it isn't a question of consumer rights, her dispute seems to be that Castorama say it works to specification, just not in her house which may be too small. If however they recommended the heater for her house then she may have a case.

I don't know if the producxt came with instructions in english but they can be found here:-
http://docs.pvg.eu/bestanden/47C153B4-0 ... 30X_gb.pdf They are pretty specific about ventilation.

My advice would be cut your losses and sell them and replace them with electric heaters which need no ventilation.

Nigel and Karen · Post by **Nigel and Karen** » Tue 31 Jan 2012 10:33

Hi
just got back, we found that all sorts of things set the sensors off, a small spill of the fuel as you fill it up, ours cut out when i started painting from the paint fumes.
I showed them pictures on my phone of the heater next to an open door with the E11 warning showing.[/img]

Nigel and Karen · Post by **Nigel and Karen** » Tue 31 Jan 2012 15:04

Another thing we found, you need a flow of air just opening a window wasnt enough, we open an upstairs window a little as well.

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consumer rights

consumer rights