Michelin Star restaurants

john · Post by **john** » Sun 31 May 2009 20:34

Santiago wrote:Hang on a minute chaps. You've turned the tables (pun intended) completely. I said that the La Table wine list was too expensive.

I think they should have more and better wines under 20.

Serge - La Table is a RESTAURANT, not a supermarket.

Not turning the tables at all. What I (and I think Serge) am saying is how you get more "interesting" wines below the 20€ "barrier" Jon. You yourself say it's impossible to produce an interesting (ie non-supermarket) wine for less than 6-7€ a pop retail. Given that restaurants run a 300-400% markup,how can they do a fascinating wine for under 20€ when the supermarkets would be charging 7€ a time?

The sums don't add up.

Marguerite & Steve · Post by **Marguerite & Steve** » Sun 31 May 2009 20:36

Yes we pay that in a restaurant.....but certainly wouldn't pay that in a Supermarket, altho we get our wines from the local Caves.

polremy · Post by **polremy** » Sun 31 May 2009 20:40

Santiago wrote:No. 15-25€ a bottle for wine in a restaurant is not a rip-off. It's the going rate

and the going rate is a rip-off, n'est-ce pas?

i mean, how can they warrant a 400% profit margin?
but then it has always been the same in France.

john · Post by **john** » Sun 31 May 2009 20:50

polremy wrote:
Santiago wrote:No. 15-25€ a bottle for wine in a restaurant is not a rip-off. It's the going rate
and the going rate is a rip-off, n'est-ce pas?

i mean, how can they warrant a 400% profit margin?
but then it has always been the same in France.

Absolutely PR. You'll know more about this than me,but we had a wonderful wine in a Spanish restaurant yesterday for 5€ a go. It may not have passed the "interesting "test,but complemented our meal excellently.

That's why I still maintain that,given the surroundings,and the fact that it's in France,the selection/prices at La Table are perfectly OK.

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Sun 31 May 2009 20:57

The usual markup in France (for the restaurants I supply) is around 100%.

Therefore if you can buy a good wine for 9€ in the shops or at the winery(which you can). It should be 18€ in a resto.

I'm not criticising restaurants in general. Think about it. They have to buy the wine, often via an agent who delivers to them, store it, serve it and wash the glasses. You can't expect them to do that for nothing.

john · Post by **john** » Sun 31 May 2009 21:00

Santiago wrote:The usual markup in France (for the restaurants I supply) is around 100%.

.

Absolutely NO way. 200% minimum. More usually 3-400%.

Where is this restaurant that does 100% markup,Jon.? Coz I want to go....

Marguerite & Steve · Post by **Marguerite & Steve** » Sun 31 May 2009 21:03

Marguerite & Steve wrote:Yes we pay that in a restaurant.....but certainly wouldn't pay that in a Supermarket, altho we get our wines from the local Caves.

.......this is of course in a Michelin star restaurant or equivalent, but I have always said I like a "plonk" wine something to slurp in the evening..

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Sun 31 May 2009 21:23

Le Cortal in Vernet and Mas Chabry by the Perpignan Peage Sud, to name but 2.

polremy · Post by **polremy** » Sun 31 May 2009 21:33

john wrote:
polremy wrote:
Santiago wrote:No. 15-25€ a bottle for wine in a restaurant is not a rip-off. It's the going rate
and the going rate is a rip-off, n'est-ce pas?

i mean, how can they warrant a 400% profit margin?
but then it has always been the same in France.
Absolutely PR. You'll know more about this than me,but we had a wonderful wine in a Spanish restaurant yesterday for 5€ a go. It may not have passed the "interesting "test,but complemented our meal excellently.

That's why I still maintain that,given the surroundings,and the fact that it's in France,the selection/prices at La Table are perfectly OK.

Can you give us some names of good restaurants just over the border please, Jon.
Especially ones that serve wine for 5E a go (bottle I hope, not glass)

john · Post by **john** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 09:36

The vast majority of the Restos in Spain I've reported on here and in POL(including those in the latest edition...out this week) will do a perfectly drinkable "Vino de la Casa" for around 5€. Some for less. The Mas Ullastre in St Climent for example do one for 2€90 per btl!

I agree that in too many French restos wine prices (given the "buy in cost" ) are an absolute rip-off.

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 10:14

They are still better than most UK restaurants where 3 times the retail price (4 times trade) is the norm.

Having reread the thread, I now realise why you say restaurants charge 400% markup. Yes they do on the cheapest wines, especially by the pichet. A 50cl Pichet at 5€ probably costs them about 75c max. That's a massive markup of 400-500%. A bottle at 18€ that retails at 9€ is only 100% markup.

john · Post by **john** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 12:27

I'd certainly agree that there is more scope for a markup on pichet wines,but nearly all the restaurateurs I know admit to at least a 3x markup on cost on bottles as well.

Never been to Vernet,but went to Mas Chabry a year or so back. It didn't ,at the time,strike me as having particularly well-priced wines (or food for that matter!). Don't remember whether your wine was on,but how much do they charge for it? Presumably between 25-30 €. ie a 3x markup.

opas · Post by **opas** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 13:16

I have been nosey........Tahi from the domaine is 17 euros , in mas Chabry it is 27 Euros. you can do the sums from there.

graham34 · Post by **graham34** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 13:44

Finding restaurant wine lists on-line is challenging. Of two I've found (one the excellent new Micheling star establishment de Lauzun) then looking at relatively young wines that will have been recently purchased then the markup is around x2 on retail prices for wines that list for 20-30€.

The lowest markup is 60% on 110 € Dom. Peyre Rose (no, not worth the 69 € retail).

La Terrasse du Mimosa in Montpeyroux charges a straight 8 € markup on their caviste prices. The more serious Mimosa adds 16 € but has terrific bargains on mature wines e.g. Aupilhac 2000 is marked up just x1.4 the cost of a replacement 2007 vintage, remarkable given the initial outlay has been tied up for 5 years.

As I've said before, restaurants that buy direct from vineyards that sell them wine at trade prices can offer the best deals (if they're not greedy).

john · Post by **john** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 13:52

opas wrote:I have been nosey........Tahi from the domaine is 17 euros , in mas Chabry it is 27 Euros. you can do the sums from there.

Well that's a very low markup opas,it's true. Presumably Jon lets this restaurant have it for a lot less than 17,and of course ,as Graham says there are savings to be made for restaurateurs by buying direct.

But not everybody wants/is able to do this,and I still maintain that 3x markup is the "norm".

Another fly in the ointment is that it's quite often possible to buy a vineyard's wine for less in a supermarket than it is direct from the vineyard. An example is Montana. Their BiB price is 2 € per 5l box more at their site than it is in Intermarché.

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 15:39

It seems a bit counterproductive to sell wine to a supermarket at such a discount that they can sell it cheaper than at the domaine but then if they are shifting a lot of it, perhaps Montana doesn't mind being undercut by his own buyers.

john · Post by **john** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 15:53

Must confess the same thought had crossed my mind,but presumably ,because it's such a good wine,the Intermarché guys want it and know they can shift a lot of it...at least more than Montana can on their own premises. So,not really counterproductive to anyone. A win-win situation.

Puddles · Post by **Puddles** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 19:58

Sorry , but I have to stick my ducks bill into this thread;
You are all on about supermarket prices vis resturant wine prices & it totally takes me by my feathery tail that no one has mentioned 'Domaine de Rombeau' at Riversaltes.
Bottle of red en vente dans La Cave 5 euros
Bottle of the same red with your meal in the resturant 5 euros.!!!!!!!!!!!
Now dont go trying to tell me the mark up is covered by the food costs;
I rest my tired feathers in my little nest & goodnight;

Serge · Post by **Serge** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 21:15

€5 is a reasonable price to pay anywhere - anything over that is presumably profit

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 21:18

That's the great thing about eating at a winery. Wine at retail prices!

I guess an intersting question is this. Why are wines by the glass often better value than wines in bottle? Surely there is more work and waste with the by-the-glass wines.

I'm not a restauranteur but I do wonder why they need to mark up wine so much. Obviously they need to mark it up to cover costs of storage, serving and washing up but as Graham said a few pages back, why so much?

If there was not so much of a markup, would people buy better wine in restaurants? Perhaps not - and that's why they do it - but it does seem to punish the wine lover.

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 21:29

While I'm on an outside-the-box thought train...

What about a restaurant where every wine is marked up by a fixed amount based on the cost of serving it. I'm sure then people would get to drink better wines for less money.

john · Post by **john** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 22:07

Well,yes ,it doesn't cost any more to provide a 40€ wine to an eater than a 5€ one.

But as you well know,that's not the "way it works". It's all about charging what the market will stand. As long as there are the morons who walk into a restaurant and order "a bottle of the most expensive wine you've got,mate",restaurateurs will keep ripping the rest of us off.

Serge · Post by **Serge** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 22:36

Well said that man!

I take it the well publicised BBQ went well?

Colin L · Post by **Colin L** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 22:49

Santiago wrote: Obviously they need to mark it up to cover costs of storage, serving and washing up but as Graham said a few pages back, why so much?

I suspect it is not so much a matter of costing the particulars like storing, serving etc to do with with the wine as of generally making as much as possible from the wine and for that matter coffee and bottled water because the margins on the food are quite low.

In the same sort of way, pubs mark up mixers and soft drinks to the extent that to the customer they seem disproportionately expensive.

graham34 · Post by **graham34** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 22:54

Puddles wrote:... no one has mentioned 'Domaine de Rombeau' at Riversaltes.
Bottle of red en vente dans La Cave 5 euros
Bottle of the same red with your meal in the resturant 5 euros.!!!!!!!!!!!

Virtually as good is the Le Bistro d'Alex at the Florensac (34) co-op. Mark up on the single bottle price is 0.40 € I recall, so a few bottles are under 5 €. The food is also excellent. I love the place, but it's hardly a special occasion destination that gets a wine lover's anticipation into overdrive.

graham34 · Post by **graham34** » Mon 01 Jun 2009 22:57

Santiago wrote:While I'm on an outside-the-box thought train...

What about a restaurant where every wine is marked up by a fixed amount based on the cost of serving it. I'm sure then people would get to drink better wines for less money.

Isn't that what La Terrasse du Mimosa in Monteyroux I mentioned gives you with an 8 € a bottle flat mark up

john · Post by **john** » Tue 02 Jun 2009 08:39

Colin L wrote:
In the same sort of way, pubs mark up mixers and soft drinks to the extent that to the customer they seem disproportionately expensive.

Another manifestation of this is the outrageous price of beer (pression and bottle) in French bars etc,Colin.

The mark-up on beer is even more eye-watering than on wine. You are right. How much does it cost to provide a glass and wash it up!!!???

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Tue 02 Jun 2009 09:10

To be fair, it does cost more to store and serve a 40€ than a 5€ one. More upfront cost, more risk, more storage time. Often the pricier wines on a menu are older vintages that you wouldn't be able to buy anywhere else. I do wish more restaurants followed the lead of Terrasse du Mimosa for young wines.

However, I can also see why they don't. I've read lots of reviews on here and elsewhere where people go on about the wonderful food and then say "and it well down well with a pichet of house red". If customers nearly always opt for the cheapest wine option, when you do want a good wine with good food you have to pay through the nose. A vicious circle ?

john · Post by **john** » Tue 02 Jun 2009 11:28

Santiago wrote: However, I can also see why they don't. I've read lots of reviews on here and elsewhere where people go on about the wonderful food and then say "and it well down well with a pichet of house red". If customers nearly always opt for the cheapest wine option, when you do want a good wine with good food you have to pay through the nose. A vicious circle ?

Don't really follow that,Santiago. Why SHOULD you have to "pay through the nose"? Most people (myself included) do not see any sense in paying more for the wine than you do for the food. I appreciate why you feel it's perfectly reasonable to do so,but you are in a very small minority.

As I've said before, a pichet of house wine is perfectly adequate for a menu/formule at the majority of restos round here.

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Tue 02 Jun 2009 14:30

No I don't think you should have to pay more for wine than food and don't think I ever had (in a restaurant). What I'm saying is that if the restaurant generally only sells pichet wine, the better bottles move much more slowly so when they do sell one, they want to recoup the costs of storage and tied up cash. That's why it's a vicious circle. If their better wines had less of a markup, more people may be tempted, but that only works if their clientele appreciate wine.

I agree that a pichet, well chosen, is suitable to match a typical formule. What I think is odd is to go for a menu gourmande at, say, 28€ and then wash it down with en vrac plonk. It's like wearing cheap shoes with a nice suit.

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Michelin Star restaurants