Finding a good steak.

Marguerite & Steve · Post by **Marguerite & Steve** » Mon 25 Jul 2011 15:04

I asked in my area (16) Charente, why can't you buy a good steak in France, this was my reply, which I thought was very informative, it may be useful to you.

Hi, as a beef producer, perhaps I can offer some explanations as to why so many people are rightly disappointed with most of the beef here.

Next time you are at your point of sale, supermarket or private butcher, look for the photocopy of the "pink card", registration/identification document of every individual bovine slaughtered in France. On this card you will see exactly what breed the animal was, how old and most importanatly the ticket from the abattoir saying when it was slaughtered.

I can guarantee that most of you will be boggle eyed when you have finished reading the info. First of all the breed. Each breed has a code number , 34 limousine, 38 charolais, 66 prim holstein 39 cross bred etc. It will say type racial, either print the breed details or just the code. I for one would not touch any meat marked type laitiere or 66. Now look at what sex the animal was, 95% are females, now look at the age and be prepared for a shock!. Most of these so called beef animals are cows over the age of ten. What would be considered cull cow meat in the UK is sold as beef here. When you know how many medical treatments the average cow has in here life time you will understand where I am going with that argument.!!

Finally, look at the slaughterhouse docket and see when the animal was killed. Most supermarkets have the "beef" cut up on the slab within six days of slaughter!! any wonder it is tough.

There is a very strange attitude to hanging beef here. I have had to argue all the way with my local abattoir to let me leave the carcasse whole in the abattoir fridges for more than a week. They think I am a bit whacky but have now agreed to let me leave them there for up to fifteen days. Still not enough in my opinion but I don't have a big enough fridge unit to hang a full length carcass and meat doesn't mature as well when cut up into manageable pieces.

If you can find a local butcher, depending on region, you may find he will mature beef up to 24 days but he will have to have to have enough beef sales to warrent buying whole carcasses, most small butchers buy beef in big bits to avoid waste, and as I have said, beef will not mature in bits. catch 22 situation perhaps.

To get round the maturing battle at the abattoir, I now only kill baby beef animals 9 to 14 months old and hang for a minimum of 12 days, it seems the only form of compromise available.

So, to get back to the OP, have a look for the info I have outlined, try to buy meat from an animal under five years old, avoid the dairy cows ( much higher amounts of medication in their productive lives), look for the slaughter date. You may have to resort to buying smaller pieces of the more expensive cuts to cook as "normal UK way" or be prepared to slow cook the cheaper steaks either in the oven,braised or in a casserole. All of which seems a shame to have to cook "steak" like that because of lack of maturity and aftercare of slaughtered beef.

john · Post by **john** » Mon 25 Jul 2011 15:28

Very interesting article,Marg,and quite in line with what I have had explained to me both talking to people here and reading magazines.

The bottom line is that there is very little consistency with steaks in France,and it seems to make little or no difference where you buy it. I've had very good steaks from "local " butchers and poor ones from supermarkets. But then again, I've had excellent examples from places like Intermarché /Auchan,and absolute rubbish from butchers here in the town.

So,my attitude,given that inconsistency ,is to concentrate on price. There is absolutely no point in paying through the nose by buying from a local guy,imho, as there's no guarantee that you'll get a better steak.

The one consistent factor(though I appreciate that it's not terribly practical to you guys up in Charente !) is to buy your beef in Spain,as,in the main, quality is higher,and prices lower.

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Mon 25 Jul 2011 18:19

Since moving here I think I have tried every cut available and they have all been tough and tasteless. Recently however I have been buying basse cote (the lowest of the low) . Each time it is tasty and melt in the mouth. I dont marinate for long periods or slow cook. Merely rub with veg oil and some black pepper and very quickly griddle. I am one of the heathens who eat steak blue!
That was an excellent and informative posting Marguerite. Thank you.

john · Post by **john** » Mon 25 Jul 2011 18:24

Sue wrote:. I am one of the heathens who eat steak blue!

Not heathen at all Sue. It's the heathens who eat it murdered (bien cuit ) !!

Your experience is similar to mine,seemingly. Just because you pay a fancy price does not mean ,necessarily, that you get a fancy steak.

Rose · Post by **Rose** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 01:22

I must say I enjoyed a couple of basse cote steaks during June. As with any steak, I think they need a certain marbling or amount of fat. If I am pushing the boat out I buy the Charal steaks and have never had a bad one.

However, I remember the 70s when we lived in Australia for a couple of years. We could afford to buy steaks for a barbecue for 50 people (T bones) and one for the flies so they did not annoy us whilst cooking.

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 10:04

Some interesting info there. Thanks.

I don't agree with John at all. There are, I'm sure, some local butchers who just sell the same steaks as the supermarkets but add a little conviviality and charge 22€ a kilo instead of 17€.

However, we've been buying our beef from Maison Puig in Thuir and Maison Paré in Llupia for 5 years and the quality, especially Puig, is consistently higher than that of any of the supermarkets. Puig doesn't do offers and promos, he just sells beef at fixed prices. It is always well-aged and there is always a queue. Paré does weekly promos on each type of meat and you generally have to take advantage of those offers to pay a reasonable price.

One thing you will not get is good beef on promo at the supermarket. It is nearly always tough and tasteless. Personally I'd rather eat a good pork chop than a poor steak if I want to save money.

Another think I've found is that good bas coté can be better than poor faux fillet. Faux fillet never seems as good as sirloin. I generally go for entrecote. However, if you don't mind a bit of toughness, bavette (skirt steak) can be very tasty if cooked appropriately.

I'm not convinced about Spanish beef in general but we bought some nice cuts at the butchers attched to the Tramuntana supermarket in La Jonq last week and it was several € a kilo less than in France.

redneckrover · Post by **redneckrover** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 10:15

I am very interested in the discussion on steaks in France,it is a question I have often considered asking. I have been trying,off and on, for the last 30 years to get a decent steak in France. Its not all bad but, in my experience, its never great. In general here in Ireland you can buy a great steak every time you visit the supermarket if you know what you are looking for. Given that most of our best beef is exported,a lot of it to France, I wonder who's selling it in France ????

Post by **Kate** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 10:22

I'm a big steak eater (tho a theoretical vegetarian!) and over the past couple of years I have found it fairly difficult to get a really good steak round here in restos. OK ones a plenty, and, to be fair, a few excellent ones, but they have tended to be an exception to the rule. However when we eat in Spain, I have found that a poor or average steak has been the exception, and they have mainly been excellent, both in taste and quality, and half the price.

john · Post by **john** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 14:00

Santiago wrote:I don't agree with John at all. .

Never suspected for one minute that you would,Jon......

I'm merely speaking as I find,and,seemingly several others have found the same. I have been quick to point out that I've had good steaks from a number of souces,as I have had poor ones. The observation I'm making is that,unless you know specifically otherwise,it's not worth paying a large price premium for steak from local suppliers.

Agree with you about "special offer" beef in Supermarkets though. Usually,not terribly good.

I'm afraid the logic of your "pork chop" argument escapes me. If I want a steak,I want a steak. Not a pork chop. It's rather like saying that I'd like a coupe of fine Champagne,but a Pint of lager will do just as well!

I suspect that your experience of steak buying in Spain is limited, from your comment. The large number of French customers in Spanish butchers shops (not just in LJ) tends to suggest to me that they know a good quality deal when they see one !

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 14:25

I'm afraid the logic of your "pork chop" argument escapes me. If I want a steak,I want a steak. Not a pork chop. It's rather like saying that I'd like a coupe of fine Champagne,but a Pint of lager will do just as well!

The point I'm making is that if I'm going to have steak, I'd rather have a good one and pay for it. If I'm trying to save money, I'd rather eat a cheaper cut of meat than take a punt on a cheaper steak. IMO that's a waste of a meal.

I'm the same about Champagne too. I'd rather limit the amount of Sparkling wine I buy and stick to good Champagne than drink cheap fizz.

Having had similar discussions with you over the years, John, I think we are fundamentally different in the way we spend our money. My philosophy is to limit the amount or frequency of the things I like which cost money, rather than to limit the amount of money I'm prepared to pay for each one of that thing.

When I realised that my largest monthly expense was wine, and I wasn't prepared to only have 1 bottle a week, I decided to make it myself

john · Post by **john** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 14:44

Santiago wrote: When I realised that my largest monthly expense was wine, and I wasn't prepared to only have 1 bottle a week, I decided to make it myself

I'm happy to concede that,in that point at least, your prowess is superior to mine,Jon !

You are still only grasping half the point though. It's not purely down to a question of "limiting the amount of money" I'm paying. You are automatically assuming that the quality of the goods on offer (be it steak,wine ,pork chops,veg etc) is bound to be better from the "local" source. And I am saying that that is far from necessarily the case.

malcolmcooper · Post by **malcolmcooper** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 18:13

You'd expect me to chip in here I guess! I had a chat to my English butcher in relation to this thread and got a few expert details.

All of the fresh meat I stock, bacon, sausages, gammon and pork pies come from Barenton Butchers in Normandy. They spookily happen to be called Jeremy & Lisa Cooper but we're not related.

I offer their beef products to order and as this thread is about steak I can tell you that rump steak is 22 euros a kilo. You could order online direct from Barenton at the same price by the way but if you order and collect from me you don't pay any delivery charges.

Jeremy and Lisa guarantee me that all their beef is from male livestock aged 4 to 6 years. It is hung for 18 days and continues to mature in vacuum packaging for up to 28 days. It is well marbled, flavoursome and consistent. In addition in the unlikely event of any disappointment, ever, you have me to talk to and in turn, I have them. I insist on selling the best because I believe that quality will win in the end.

As for restaurant steak I just have to add that the best and most consistent I've found is at La Cueva in Laroque. I'm not being biased because I live in Laroque, it's just a fact and I eat out quite a lot. It's not the cheapest but as mentioned by others I'm happy to pay a bit more for melt in the mouth, tender steak.

john · Post by **john** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 18:24

As a matter of interest,Malcolm,do your friends cut meat in the English or French way ? Because,as you know there is a BIG difference. Some English cuts do not exist in France,and v.v.

Thereby lies the problem. Jon said earlier.... "if you do not mind your steak being tough".... . Well, candidly I do,and most folk I speak to do. Clearly it's not as much an issue to the French.

I feel that in the days when beef was tuppence a bucketload you were prepared to make allowances,but ,frankly,at 22€ per kg,I expect my meat to be tender. To illustrate that,the butchers in Spain sell Girona fillet of beef at around 25€ a kg. It is melt in the mouth stuff and wonderfully tasty.

malcolmcooper · Post by **malcolmcooper** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 18:37

Yep, English butcher and English cuts. I've eaten it and order regularly for myself and I'm demanding.

russell · Post by **russell** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 20:31

Santiago wrote: I'm the same about Champagne too. I'd rather limit the amount of Sparkling wine I buy and stick to good Champagne than drink cheap fizz.

Having had similar discussions with you over the years, John, I think we are fundamentally different in the way we spend our money. My philosophy is to limit the amount or frequency of the things I like which cost money, rather than to limit the amount of money I'm prepared to pay for each one of that thing.

Why do people consider that more expensive=better?

My favourite wine from this region is Maury VDP at about €10 for a 5 l. BIB.

As for champagne, I'd rather drink cider!

As for steak, for me the best flavour and most tender is always cheval.

Eat and drink what you like, not what you are told or indoctrinated into thinking is good.

Russell.

Santiago · Post by **Santiago** » Tue 26 Jul 2011 21:59

More expensive does not always mean better but you nearly always have to pay a bit more if you want quality over quantity.

The key thing is whether you really appreciate the thing you are buying. If you don't, there is no point spending your money. The second key is whether you are impressed by labels or by the underlying quality.

That Maury BIB may well be your favourite but that doesn't mean it's the best in the region by a long shot. I've tasted it too and I don't deny you get a smooth drink and a generous amount of alcohol but I'm looking for more than that in my glass of wine.

I love these conversations.

john · Post by **john** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 07:46

Agree with Russell that expensive does not automatically mean better.

But even if we say it is,then anyone can buy good stuff by paying top-dollar. The real skill is to acquire quality at low prices,surely ?

In any commodity /stock maket, no one ever got rich by buying dear. The smart operators do well by buying quality stock at low prices.

I understand your theory,Jon that you restrict your intake of top notch goods to high-days and holidays,when you pay big money(infrequently). But,I'm afraid life is too short for that,to my mind. I like to consume quality a lot more regularly than that. But to do that you have to "box clever"!

malcolmcooper · Post by **malcolmcooper** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 10:58

Why do people consider that more expensive=better?

I don't think anyone has actually said that. I do think that the old saying "you get what you pay for" is OFTEN true although not always.

I won't dare to use any wine comparisons with experts here bit I'll cite the example of Stella Artois because I was in the beer business for 15 years. For all of that time Stella was sold with the strap line "reassuringly expensive" and it was. Yes it was higher strength than standard lager so attracted higher duty but that wasn't only what made it expensive. It was brewed longer than other lagers and was best of type. Consumers said so by making it the biggest selling beer in the UK regardless of its price.

Guinness is another example of best of type that consumers are willing to pay for. It's always been the most expensive beer brand and no matter what competitors did with the the likes of Murphy's and Beamish not once did they take the tiniest fraction of volume from Guinness.

There are many people who are prepared to pay for quality provided always of course that they get it. If everyone was happy to shop at Lidl and Asda then Waitrose wouldn't (couldn't) exist. If everyone bought Tesco value then there would be no Tesco Finest.

I'm passionate about selling best of type. Why? because people come back for it. It's not an easy route. I sell Dorset cereals because they are best of type. Anyone that tries them comes back for more and they don't buy Alpen again!

What I spend most of my time doing is finding the best possible price on best of type. I could stock an unbranded malt extract spread at a low price but I promise I wouldn't sell it. People who buy Marmite want Marmite and are prepared to pay for it. I could carry Crosse & Blackwell baked beans or even Branston baked beans at a lower price than Heinz but nothing else sells like Heinz.

You're right though in that that doesn't always mean most expensive. I have a favourite rouge BIB that works out to the equivalent of around 2.50 a bottle and I buy a lot of it. Perhaps not the cheapest but great value for money. That's the phrase that really matters. Value for money.

Value for money also needs to take into account waste. If you can eat ALL of your melt in the mouth, flavoursome steak that you paid 15 euro a kilo for please give me the address of the butcher. If a third of it is gristle and fat then I don't need it. If you get dirt cheap frozen bacon from a discount store in Spain and you don't mind that it shrinks by half, you have to pour the water off and you like the white stuff then well done, you got a bargain.

I don't mean to come over too bluntly here but this is my business and my passion. For me, quality and value for money are critical. Sainsbury's had my favourite strap line in a recent Jamie Oliver campaign. "Don't just eat food, taste it".

john · Post by **john** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 12:25

There seem to be two separate strands beginning to run off this thread Malcolm.

In one,there is the question of quality v expense...as you so rightly put it value for money of a given brand. You know your customers, and I'm sure that in a small enterprise,in a small market with no real alternatives, it makes huge sense to stock branded goods. It's what people expect to see on your shelves. If they want own brand at cheaper prices,they'd nip round the corner to Carrefour or Aldi. Brand awareness is what companies spend zillions on.

The other strand concerns the assumption that expensive = better. And it's been stated that there are people that will only buy from small local traders at a far higher price,because it is ,without question, better quality stuff. And what some of us are saying is that is not always the case. Sometimes it is, but by no means always.

Re bacon....I never buy it here. From anyone . It's all rubbish compared to where I get it from in UK.

Re meat...there are dozens of butchers in Spain where you can get good beef ,well aged,tasty ,and with no gristle for 15€ a kg. Sorry,but you can't get good beef without some fat on it. If you don't ,it's tasteless. Let me know which town you visit and I'll PM you a recommendation !

malcolmcooper · Post by **malcolmcooper** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 12:39

it makes huge sense to stock branded goods. It's what people expect to see on your shelves.

It's a bit more than that. It's about trust. I study how folks behave because I have to. There is no doubt expressed when grabbing Walkers crisps. People think twice about other brands. If they try and don't like it's a written off purchase.

Re bacon....I never buy it here. From anyone . It's all rubbish compared to where I get it from in UK.

I hope my butchers aren't reading this. They are just as passionate about good bacon as I am. Barenton bacon is top drawer, 100% dry cured. I'll accept that you can buy as good in the UK but you cannot buy better, here or there..
Here's an interesting article about bacon..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/ ... water.html

Of course I take your point about fat on beef, particularly good marbling. Tell me the nearest place over the border and I'll get some and compare to Barenton.

john · Post by **john** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 13:28

No sleight was intended to Mr Barenton, Malcolm,but the Pickering's bacon I get from Norwich has won countless awards. And he lets me have it at a good price as I get it for lots of other people.

As regards Spain for meat I'd agree with Jon that the butcher at La Bonk Tramuntana is good. Though the one at the old Escudero is better,and the guy in the old town is better still.

If you are prepared to travel further,the best deals /quality are to be found on the various places in and around Figueres market.

malcolmcooper · Post by **malcolmcooper** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 13:43

and the guy in the old town is better still.

Let me have address or directions to this guy then please. I'll get there at some point and try it.

As I said about the bacon you will not get better here or in the UK than Barenton.

john · Post by **john** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 15:03

malcolmcooper wrote:As I said about the bacon you will not get better here or in the UK than Barenton.

With respect,Malcolm; until you've tried literally everyone's bacon ,you are not in a position to make a statement like that !

For obvious reasons,I just find collecting my dry cured bacon nicely vacuum wrapped in Norwich much easier than going elsewhere.....

opas · Post by **opas** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 15:11

john · Post by **john** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 15:17

opas wrote:

You've been unusually quiet on this matter opas.Up till very recently you did a lot of postings about your cheap meat buying exploits in Figs. (since closed)

Where do you go nowadays ?!

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 15:20

opas · Post by **opas** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 15:21

Metro!

Outie bought a full sheep.........so the freezers are pretty full.
I am not really a steak lover, fish or chicken are my prefered dish.

john · Post by **john** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 15:25

opas wrote:Metro!

Outie bought a full sheep.........so the freezers are pretty full.
I am not really a steak lover, fish or chicken are my prefered dish.

Blimey. The underground in Paris is a long way to go for your meat. I thought going to Spain was far.....

By a full sheep,d'you mean you had to shear it first !?

opas · Post by **opas** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 15:27

Well we are not welsh so we did not sh..... it

malcolmcooper · Post by **malcolmcooper** » Wed 27 Jul 2011 15:28

With respect,Malcolm; until you've tried literally everyone's bacon ,you are not in a position to make a statement like that !

I beg to differ. It's not rocket science. Good quality meat, properly cut and properly cured. What I said was you can't get better than Barenton. What remains is subjective. Not to your taste?, I'm OK with that, just as with anything, as long as it isn't actually off it's just not to your personal liking. Wine is a good case in point.

This is a good discussion. No one's falling out.

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