Inheritance tax

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 06:55

Sue wrote:The 1st May is a holiday and being as it falls on a Saturday will be either the Friday or Monday but I dont know which. I am sure someone else will so really I havent been much help.

When a bank holiday falls on a Saturday or Sunday the French workforce lose the bank holiday.

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 07:01

When a bank holiday falls on a Saturday or Sunday the French workforce lose the bank holiday.

That seems unfair, I wonder who thought that one up?

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 07:10

It's always been that way I think, Kathy!

The real bummer is if Christmas Day falls on a Sunday!!! You don't get ONE day off for Crimble as Boxing Day isn't a bank holiday either! And if Christmas Day is a Sunday, so is New Years Day!!

The month of May is great because we get the 1st, 8th, 13th and 24th! However, this year the 1st and 8th fall on a Saturday so will be lost by those workers who only work Monday to Friday.

mand · Post by **mand** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 11:45

Kathy wrote:
When a bank holiday falls on a Saturday or Sunday the French workforce lose the bank holiday.
That seems unfair, I wonder who thought that one up?

probably napoleon along with the stupid inheritance law....i hate being dictated to and when our solicitor told us it was napoleons law (inhertance that is) ..i couldn't help but say he's been dead a long time and it's about time the law was changed....she did not like that one bit...lol

there are a lot of things in the french system such as bank hols, inheritance law etc that need updating and are unfair

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 12:03

I don't think the law about bank holidays is altogether that bad. No one seems to bother about it, to be honest. It's just one of those things.

The inheritance laws are a different story. I too intensely dislike being dictated to, but I CAN see the logic in not being able to disinherit your kids - and there ARE ways around them.

mand · Post by **mand** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 12:24

thumbelina wrote:I don't think the law about bank holidays is altogether that bad. No one seems to bother about it, to be honest. It's just one of those things.

The inheritance laws are a different story. I too intensely dislike being dictated to, but I CAN see the logic in not being able to disinherit your kids - and there ARE ways around them.

what ways around them the only 2 i know are setting yourself up as a company before purchasing, the second making a donation between spouses so as not to end up out on your ear should one of you die..

i think it's wrong because it's not just your kids but for those without kids it then goes in order of family including cousins you might never have had contact with....

Robert Ferrieux · Post by **Robert Ferrieux** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 13:52

from Helen

quote: Mand

probably napoleon along with the stupid (my quotes) Your opinion, Mand[/b]inheritance law....i hate being dictated to Who dictated [/b]that you should live here?and when our solicitor told us it was napoleons law (inhertance that is) ..i couldn't help but say he's been dead Sorry, Mand, but that's the stupidest excuse for changing the law I've ever heard a long time and it's about time the law was changed....she did not like that one bit...lol

there are a lot of things in the french system such as bank hols, inheritance law etc that need updating and are unfair[/quote]Mand! Mand! Go into politics.....in your own country!
If you ARE French I apologise, mais........

Serge · Post by **Serge** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 13:54

That's a bit vicious Helen!

.. not had your medication today?

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 14:36

Well, as you say, maybe the best way is to set up a company. Or give the house to your preferred recipient and set up a usufruit.

And whilst I do think the laws may need updating, it really doesn't seem to be that much of a problem.

The law, as I understand it, isn't much different in Spain either - so maybe it's Britain which is wrong????

mand · Post by **mand** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 17:42

the usufruit only covers your spouse to have use of but if they want to sell the property they still have to have permission.

as for not being a problem i don't think the woman we bought our house from would feel that way she got caught in the french system.

a french family her husband was diagnosed with cancer they had 1 adult son who was up to his eyeballs in debt so the parents sought legal advice about their finances the solicitor suggested a usufruit but before it could be brought into action the husband died, the son forced his mother to sell the family home so instead of living out her days in a house with pool she is in an appartment.

i make no apology for thinking this law is outdated i am married to a french national and have seen quite a few french people get hurt in this law.. it was set up to protect the children but times have changed and even in france divorce is now common place and it makes it unfair and causes issues within step families,example people try to treat their stepchildren the same as their own but this inheritance law doesn't allow it

i am sorry Helen if my views offend you but i am entitled to my opinion and have seen the suffering some french people have gone through because of it

Kathy · Post by **Kathy** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 17:47

You should be able to leave your wordly goods to whomever you please.
I realise this has gone well off topic from the original posting but had to put my two pennies worth in.

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 18:00

Kathy wrote:You should be able to leave your wordly goods to whomever you please.
I realise this has gone well off topic from the original posting but had to put my two pennies worth in.

I don't disagree with you at all, Kathy. BUT - the French are exceptionally good at protesting and striking for things that they don't like or things they want. If this was a big issue for them, then I am confident they would be demonstrating / protesting / striking or at least campaigning for a change in the law.

They're not.

So I don't think, for them, it's a particularly big issue!

Personally, I think all inheritance laws and inheritance taxes suck but there's nothing I can do about it, so I just have to try to work my way around the system to my family's advantage the best I can.

Robert Ferrieux · Post by **Robert Ferrieux** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 20:47

from Helen

Cheat the system:
SPEND it NOW & enjoy it

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 20:59

Robert Ferrieux · Post by **Robert Ferrieux** » Fri 12 Mar 2010 22:05

In a country which, until the end of the 19th century, was organised according to a feudal system revolving around eldest sons, it didn't come amiss that all children, including daughters, were given equal rights (until he became Emperor, i.e. as general and First Consul from 1802 to 1804, Buonaparte, as he was then called, was heir to the French Revolution).
As for disposing of your property and money as you like, well it goes much against the grain of the French republican spirit, redolent as it is of the Ancien Régime.
Anyhow, there's always been a certain percentage of your assets which you're free to donate to whomsoever you like, this percentage having been increased at the beginning of Sarkozy's run of office, alongside with the abolition of all inheritance tax for direct heirs within the limits of a rather large sum of money.
So all in all it's perhaps worth considering dying in this country…
Robert.
PS. May I let it be known that I have recently written for Wikipedia France three long articles in French on Les Brontë, Elizabeth Barrett Browning and Robert Browning. A shorter one on Porphyria's Lover has also been completed and I was one of the main contributors for My Last Duchess.

Serge · Post by **Serge** » Sat 13 Mar 2010 00:38

It's about Vets opening on Sundays Robert ..................

..... sorry, culture is lost on me ..........

Robert Ferrieux · Post by **Robert Ferrieux** » Sat 13 Mar 2010 04:05

Serge wrote:It's about Vets opening on Sundays Robert .................. :roll:
..... sorry, culture is lost on me .......... :oops:

I know, but there's a grafted polemic about inheritance laws, isn't there?

opas · Post by **opas** » Sat 13 Mar 2010 12:57

Leave it all to the dogs home or cattery

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Sat 13 Mar 2010 13:04

Robert Ferrieux wrote: Anyhow, there's always been a certain percentage of your assets which you're free to donate to whomsoever you like, this percentage having been increased at the beginning of Sarkozy's run of office, alongside with the abolition of all inheritance tax for direct heirs within the limits of a rather large sum of money.
So all in all it's perhaps worth considering dying in this country…
Robert.

Expat Finances - Inheritance tax and gift tax in France

Section kindly contributed by Steven Grover - see contact details at the bottom of this page if you would like further information.

How do the recent changes in the Inheritance/Gift Tax law affect me?

On the 13th July 2007 a new law which is being introduced from 1st January 2008 makes considerable changes to existing French Inheritance/Gift Tax Laws has been adopted be the French parliament.

What does it change?

• Inheritance Tax between married couples and those with a PACs (Pacte Civil de Solidarité) agreement on first death will no longer be applicable, before limit was set at €76,000 for married couples and €57,000 for PACs partners.

• The allowance for children & parents of the deceased has now been increased from €50,000 (per child) to €150,000 (per child) • Brothers & sisters of the deceased can now receive €15,000 each before Inheritance tax.

• Nephews & nieces of the deceased will also now be able to receive €5,000 each before Inheritance tax.

• No Inheritance Tax between Brothers & Sisters who reside at the same address.

• Limit of the amount that can be left to a disabled person who is not a direct heir has been changed from €50,000 to €150,000.

• It is now possible under the new Gift Tax laws to donate €150,000 per child every 6 years without incurring any Gift Tax.

• You are also able to donate €30,000 to a member of family (from their 18th Birthday) without incurring any Gift Tax.

What has not changed?

In France, assets pass according to French succession law rather than by will, and this favours any children of the deceased rather than the spouse (between 50% and 75% of the deceased’s assets must pass to the children). PACS partners and unmarried partners have even fewer rights to the property. This can be circumvented, but if no action is taken to provide for the spouse, they are only entitled to 25% as of right. Any unreserved balance can be left according to your will. For UK residents, this rule will apply to the French property only; if you are French resident, it applies to your worldwide assets, except for real estate situated outside France.

Where assets are taxed in both countries, under the UK/France inheritance tax treaty, tax should be paid in the country where the property is located, and you can offset this against the tax due in the country of residence to avoid double taxation, even though the UK taxes the estate and the French tax the recipient.

If you are French resident, from a UK point of view, you will be regarded as if you were domiciled in France, because of the UK/France treaty mentioned above. Therefore, only your UK assets will be subject to UK inheritance tax, with an appropriate double tax credit in France for any UK tax paid.

If you are UK resident and domiciled and own a property in France, the French property will be subject to UK IHT as part of your estate, and as it is located in France, it will also be subject to French succession tax, with an appropriate tax credit in the UK.

Well, I'm sorry, but to me NO level of inheritance tax is acceptable - in ANY country and I do not agree AT ALL that 150 000€ is

'a rather large sum of money.'

Roger O · Post by **Roger O** » Sat 13 Mar 2010 14:59

Sue wrote:Even wrapped in ham or cheese its spat out!!.

Alternatives: Smoked salmon or Foie gras, or, at very least, filet de boeuf??
One has to treat aristocrats "to the manner born"!

PS I do agree that any form of inheritance tax is an invention of the devil!
When Mum died, my sister and I managed (thanks for our faithful family solicitor) to "artificially devalue" (legally, I may mention!!!!) the family house value to avoid paying the otherwise considerable sum due!

However, the main problem with that was - well you can guess, if the house were sold for its true value!!
So far, that hasn't been an issue!

mand · Post by **mand** » Sun 14 Mar 2010 11:59

Roger O wrote:
Sue wrote:Even wrapped in ham or cheese its spat out!!.
Alternatives: Smoked salmon or Foie gras, or, at very least, filet de boeuf??
One has to treat aristocrats "to the manner born"!

PS I do agree that any form of inheritance tax is an invention of the devil!
When Mum died, my sister and I managed (thanks for our faithful family solicitor) to "artificially devalue" (legally, I may mention!!!!) the family house value to avoid paying the otherwise considerable sum due!

However, the main problem with that was - well you can guess, if the house were sold for its true value!!
So far, that hasn't been an issue!

for us our first problem was under the old system father in law died and even though mum in law had usufruit both her and hubby had to pay inheritance tax even though hubby wasn't having his inheritance at that time because of the usufruit, so he asked the solicitor if he could decline his inheritance until after his mum passes away the reply was no if he declined his inheritance it would have to go through the family in pecking order ie aunts,cousins etc, so he had to accept it even though he didn't agree with it...so soliciotr told hubby if he couldn't pay his inheritance tax then it would have to come out of the estate....my 80 year old mum in law was in tears because she was worried she would lose her home etc if we could not pay.
that is when i got into the argument mention on here about it needing updating..it hurt us both so much to see a woman of that age so distressed it was the last thing she needed on top of just losing her husband

we raised the money ourselves our solicitor was only interested in what was due to the state not mum in law or anything else..

roger we too had the house under valued at the time by some friendly estate agents but when mum in law died by god did they hit us when it came to selling the house and to make matters worse we were selling that one to purchase another and the taxman froze access to the inheritance until the capital gains was sorted which could have taken a long time the only way they would let us have the money to complete the purchase was to have a french person residing in France to go as guarantor because we were not living in France even though we already have property there, and to make matters worse not only did we get hit for capital gains in france but the uk too even though the money never reached uk soil.

I know inheritance law has changed but it still makes it so unfair for stepfamiles, friends of ours got caught in that trap it's not nice

we told our kids we are going the SKI club and they looked puzzled staing but mum you don't like snow....i know but it stands for
Spending
kids
Inheritance

then this no probs and nothing to stress over...

Roger O · Post by **Roger O** » Sun 14 Mar 2010 12:56

Mand, the case of our house (with my sister) concerned the UK only as France had nothing to do with it legally or otherwise. The house is our family one in Torquay, now wholely owned by my sister after settlement between us. Mum died in 1989 while I was domiciled temporarily in the UK between March 88 and March 90, working on a development project in Swindon on behalf of Swissair as "seconded personnel". If my sister sells it (unlikely) she knows she has sole responsibility to deal with any capital gains tax. As my sister has no children, the inheritance will be dealt with under UK law according to her willed beneficiaries.

Robert Ferrieux · Post by **Robert Ferrieux** » Sun 14 Mar 2010 15:39

[quote="thumbelina"

I do not agree AT ALL that 150 000€ is

'a rather large sum of money.'

Helen thinks
that you're a very, very lucky person, Thumbs.
150 grand! I could go & eat at El Bulli if I had half that sum!! :

Serge · Post by **Serge** » Sun 14 Mar 2010 16:05

Robert Ferrieux wrote:[quote="thumbelina"

I do not agree AT ALL that 150 000€ is
'a rather large sum of money.'

Helen thinks
that you're a very, very lucky person, Thumbs.
150 grand! I could go & eat at El Bulli if I had half that sum!! :

... but would you be happy?

cufc · Post by **cufc** » Sun 14 Mar 2010 17:13

It's a big sum in cash but not so if you are talking about property values. Is it still the case that in France most people still prefer to rent rather than own? Perhaps that's why it does not seem like such a bad arrangement.

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Sun 14 Mar 2010 18:54

Robert Ferrieux wrote:[quote="thumbelina"

I do not agree AT ALL that 150 000€ is
'a rather large sum of money.'

Helen thinks
that you're a very, very lucky person, Thumbs.
150 grand! I could go & eat at El Bulli if I had half that sum!! :

Get real Helen!!!

There are VERY few estates nowadays worth LESS than 150 000 euros!!

Roger O · Post by **Roger O** » Mon 15 Mar 2010 08:56

Surely the majority of those French currently on the SMIC, would be soooo happy!!

thumbelina · Post by **thumbelina** » Mon 15 Mar 2010 09:02

Roger O wrote:Surely the majority of those French currently on the SMIC, would be soooo happy!!

Why????

mand · Post by **mand** » Mon 15 Mar 2010 11:42

roger i should have realised that your home you were refering to was in UK when you mentioned the faithful solicitor...we found it hard to find a good one in France that we could say we are happy with but they do exist we are happy with ours in Argeles...

Roger O · Post by **Roger O** » Mon 15 Mar 2010 11:50

thumbelina wrote:
Roger O wrote:Surely the majority of those French currently on the SMIC, would be soooo happy!!
Why????

To have any kind of "backup" worth 150,000 of any EEU currency!

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