our bank and CPAM - advice welcome

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sue and paul
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our bank and CPAM - advice welcome

Post by sue and paul » Wed 11 Feb 2009 12:48

CPAM have furnished me with proof that they transferred our remboursement to our bank account 4 weeks ago.

The amount has not appeared in our bank account, even though the portion from our top-up insurance is there, so it is clear that the Carte Vitale is functioning correctly. Indeed, it has functioned correctly on another occasion since then.

I have asked twice chez CPAM re: what they can do, but they say it is a matter for the bank.

It does seem to me that the bank has fouled up, but does anyone have any idea of how to make them pay up? I have visited the deputy manager twice, and am due to call in again on Friday. We have insurance 'Protection Juridique', and we're considering asking for their help.

We aren't talking about a large amount of money, but it is the FACT rather than the EFFECT that concerns me. The bank states that this can't happen again, maybe with a more significant amount ...on what basis I don't know. Apparently on the basis that the dep manager has never seen a transfer into the ether like this in his 30 years at the bank!

I'm afraid that such a categorical statement goes down in my book along with the myths...'Ça n'existe pas'...'Quinze jours'... and 'C'est normal, Madame'. Cynical, Moi?! C'est la banco-merde!!

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polremy
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Post by polremy » Wed 11 Feb 2009 13:01

that's crazy.
can't you give them proof that it never arrived - your monthly statement perhaps?
i hate french banks.
they once hauled us in to tell us that they weren't making any money out of us! they wanted to know why our salaries/pensions weren't paid in to them every month.
we used to deposit cash over the counter every so often (having withdrawn it from the hole in the wall on our Nationwide debit card) to top up our account so that our direct debits could be paid.
never had a credit card with them (the French bank) or indeed a debit card.
no charges at all.
i told them that we would have our pensions paid in as soon as the UK went over to the euro and they were stupid enough to be happy with that!

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sue and paul
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Post by sue and paul » Wed 11 Feb 2009 13:35

I have the print-off of our account at CPAM. I have shown this to the dep manager at the bank. We have looked together at our bank account. He agrees that the money has disappeared.

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Post by john » Wed 11 Feb 2009 13:56

Presumably you have proof that CPAM paid,or at least tried to transfer,the money.

You've stated that you have proof (ie a Statement) that the money never appeared in the a/c.

qed it is the bank's fault. Whenever I make a virement the bank attaches some sort of ref number to it. Presumably the CPAM have details of such a number in this case. Just an idea,but if you can get THAT,then the bank will be able to trace it?

Touch wood,I've never yet had a problem like this with a French Bank,but no doubt my time will come,and I'm NOT looking forward to the "merde "that will ensue.

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sue and paul
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Post by sue and paul » Wed 11 Feb 2009 14:05

Yes, John, you're right. I have the proof that CPAM made the transfer, with a transaction number. I have looked at our bank statement with the dep manager, and he agrees that the transfer never arrived in our a/c. What he hasn't YET offered is an explanation or an assurance that other transfers will be safe. Nor has he offered a payment from the bank amounting to the amount lost. I shall be working on that on Friday at our next meeting. If I get no joy, I'll demand an appointment with his manager. After that, I gues it'll have to be the insurance Protection Juridique, to see if anything can be done in law to recover our money. B hell, life can be trying!!!

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Post by Kate » Wed 11 Feb 2009 14:34

Have you thought to contact the main office of your branch Sue?

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sue and paul
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Post by sue and paul » Wed 11 Feb 2009 15:01

Well, the dep manager claims to have made extensive enquiries, but I don't yet know where. It's a good idea, which I'll pursue when I see him again on Friday. I shall be asking him to list all the efforts he has already made to find out what has happened. I think it'll be a short list.

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Post by john » Wed 11 Feb 2009 15:07

In my experience the only "enquiries" made by a banker are whether his bonus cheque has been paid into his account and what fancy expensive restaurant his secretary has booked him and his "associates" in for lunch.

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Post by sue and paul » Wed 11 Feb 2009 15:59

As I said...banco-merde :roll:

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Post by thumbelina » Wed 11 Feb 2009 19:43

My partner had a serious problem with his bank - Credit Agricole at Le Boulou - because they said that a payment - for tens of thousands of euros - hadn't arrived in his account from his customer (a government owned entity!)

After THREE WEEKS it turned out that it had indeed arrived at Credit Agricole in Perpignan but then disappeared into the ether.

If a Catalan man can take over three weeks to sort out a problem for a significant amount like this, I regret to say I don't hold out much hope that you will get it sorted easily :( :(

Stick at it - go to your deputy manager's superior - and if, by chance, you are with Credit Agricole - ask them to check if it arrived at Perpignan !!!

Good luck!

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Post by sue and paul » Wed 11 Feb 2009 20:03

Thanks for your input. We're with BNPParibas in Le Boulou. It's a tiny amount compared to yours, although the security issue bothers us. We will definitely pursue this.

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Post by thumbelina » Wed 11 Feb 2009 22:01

I really think you should - doesn't matter if it's only 5 euros, it's the principle!

Good luck - let us know if we can help more

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Post by Tiffany » Wed 11 Feb 2009 23:44

Ha! BNP! We have just successfully extricated ourselves from them. When we came over in 2000 they were surprisingly adventurous and efficient and lent us the money we needed, not having any previous experience of the business we were buying and living in Greece! However, since then, it seems to me that they employ completely naive untrained youngsters.

It is definitely - it would seem - the banks fault and you should sit in his office and insist on a resolution before you leave. BNP have a customer service department which I have resorted to on occasion and have had a positive response with them, also. However, Dave's approach works best: just don't leave their office, or phone every hour until you get a satisfactory answer. One time, our contact at the bank refused to answer any more calls, so we went in in person - she pretended to be out, but we just went upstairs to her office, and all was eventually resolved.

It is ridiculous that in this day and age such methods must be resorted to, but this is French banks. Go for it and Bon Courage!!! It's YOUR money!!!

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Post by sue and paul » Thu 12 Feb 2009 10:28

I've just spoken on the phone again to the dep manager at BNP/Le Boulou. He says he has passed everything on to their Responsable Service Consommateurs (M. Gourvellec) /Quai Vauban/Perpignan. He also said that a refund is out of the question because there is no proof that the bank is at fault - it could equally be CPAM - which I don't go for, as I said before in this thread. So I am about to write a letter to M Gourvellec, strongly stating our case for the refund, expressing our lack of confidence in BNP, and outlining our intention to seek help from our Assurance Protection Juridique.
Thanks for all remarks and advice so far.

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Post by Tiffany » Thu 12 Feb 2009 11:23

just a thought, you have just checked that CPAM were trying to transfer it to your BNP bank account? I just ask, because we were promised a refund by a public body, and they tried to pay it into a different account.

Also, I'm not sure asking for a 'refund' is the way to go, as it implies giving you back something that you had once - when what they seem to have done is lost the money - they should be looking for it. Good luck, in any case.

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Post by Roger O » Thu 12 Feb 2009 13:05

I had a problem like that two years ago when the Crédit Mutuel changed one number in their ID code. They were supposed to notify directly all instances which direct debited/credited our account - e.g. CPAM, insurance companies, EDF, etc. and they "forgot" one or two - which resulted in my having no car insurance during a month as the direct debit was rejected - nasty note from the insurance company... etc etc.

Fortunately, we got it sorted out very fast, as soon as known, via our insurance agency in Pont-de-Réynès and our lady councillor at the bank - who let off a few internal bombs!!

Better to check the CPAM version of the RIB which they use to credit your account and compare it with an actual RIB which you should have in your chequebook - or be able to call up on screen online - to make sure they match 100% At least, if they match, you have eliminated that as a possible source of error and you know that the CPAM is trying to credit the correct account, which narrows down the actual source of error!

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Post by john » Thu 12 Feb 2009 17:31

Just a thought...and I know that this is France and nothing can ever be done without it being complicated....but wouldn't it be simpler if ,now you've proved to the CPAM that you've never received the money (ie it's not exitted their account),for them to just send you the dosh again?

No..on second thoughts..that'd be TOO easy.

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Post by sue and paul » Thu 12 Feb 2009 18:31

Yes, John. That does sound easy. However, CPAM say that because there is a transaction number, then the amount did leave their account. I'll keep this one for later...give them time to check their exits. Thanks.
Last edited by sue and paul on Wed 25 Feb 2009 18:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by sue and paul » Wed 25 Feb 2009 18:56

Our bank manager has phoned today. BNPParibas mediator in Perpignan told him he had to get back to CPAM and ask for their proof of the transaction taking place. He phoned them today, and miraculously spoke to someone who knows how their own organisation works. The explanation concerns clawing back from us many 50c amounts, that being the surcharge on each pack of prescription medicines for about a year now. When our 'debt' is repaid, we will start to get full refunds again. It has taken 6 weeks of phone calls and questions to get this explanation. Maybe I missed something when CPAM introduced this charge about a year ago, but it wouldn't have taken much to be told, on one of my 3 appearances in person to ask about the problem. Instead I was simply told to take it up with the bank.

Well, good on BNPParibas for once. All's well that ends well

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Post by polremy » Wed 25 Feb 2009 19:39

Well, I congratulate you on your perseverence.
Very satisfying to find out exactly what it was all about.
Woman after my own heart.
Hard earned money and all that.

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Post by john » Wed 25 Feb 2009 21:16

Sue ,you are forgetting the basic fact.....:

Never,EVER, tell the customer the truth ,whatever you do.

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Post by sue and paul » Thu 26 Feb 2009 08:42

c'est normal, John.

No, really, I'm at last pleased with BNPParibas. The very annoying thing is that the CPAM account given to me by CPAM, and the copy of it that I gave to the bank, was so complex with lots of little codes and numbers, that neither I nor the bank manager could understand it - and now we know that 3 out 4 CPAM employees couldn't either - including M Beisser, Responsable de Relations Internationales, who was the first in the line to tell me to go and ask the bank for the money.

Now then....who's next on my hit-list....? It's a good job I'm retired. All this battling doesn't leave much time to earn money :lol:

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Post by Equalizer » Thu 26 Feb 2009 11:33

sue and paul wrote:Now then....who's next on my hit-list....? It's a good job I'm retired. All this battling doesn't leave much time to earn money :lol:
Let me know when you're ready!

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