CPAM

[carol sheridan]

I know all about the anxiety that a lot of 'inactifs' have been suffering but I didn't think it applied to me. I have been resident in France, making tax declarations, since 2002 and I am 67, so clearly eligible to be in the system. The problem has arisen because I have moved to a different department.
I sent the CPAM at Perpignan the form S1104 which the CPAM in Cahors sent me, together with everything else I could think of, proof of pension entitlement from the DWP, RIB, etc. After several weeks, they wrote back to say I needed a form E121, so I rang the DWP and they sent me one almost by return which I duly sent to Perpignan. Another several weeks passed (I understand they must be snowed under at the moment) and now they have sent me another two forms, one of which demands an original birth certificate showing my parents' full names. I have only a shortened version, so I have had to go on line to order one from the Registrar in England, at a cost of 30 euros. My parents were born in 1898!
The big problem is that I changed my name by deed poll after my divorce and there is no place to show this on French forms as they don't have the ability to change their names.
I have found a phone number for an English speaking help line, so I will ring tomorrow and ask them how the heck I fill in the form 1103..
I am now owed quite a bit for radiology, visit to the doctor's and so on.
I am still using my Carte Vitale and presumably I am still registerd at Cahors.
Wouldn't it be good if they actually asked you for everything they needed the FIRST time they wrote to you?

[blackduff]

Wouldn't it be good if they actually asked you for everything they needed the FIRST time they wrote to you?

I think that those people who ask for information in dribbles, probably taught at Auchan. That's what they wanted when I decided to buy a portable at that place.

Blackduff

[carol sheridan]

I keep wondering how my parents' names could possibly be of help to the French authorities. I have my passport showing my date and place of birth, the E121 proves my entitlement to a UK pension and my tax declarations how I have been resident in France for more than five years. Why do they need anything else? And what if I didn't ever know my father's name - not everyone does?

[PaddyFrog]

Carol,
Unfortunately In France you are expected to know!

Ignorance of the law is no defence!!

On the net everything is listed ( Vos Droits)

Every State Agency have Social Assistant whose only aim in life is to assist you and send you away happy and able to sleep at night.

Every Library has the dreaded Red codes which can be looked at.

Personally I prefer my own copies of Code Civil/ Security Social/Travail/l'action sociale et des familles

I do not change them every year like the Professionals but every three or four especially when their is a major change in Legislation. they cost about 67€ each

Carol your legal name is your maiden name you only assume your Husbands name in both the UK and France.

You would be known as Carol XXXX epouse of RRRRR

In France after a divorce you have to get your Ex Husbands permission to continue using his name! if he refuse you go back to using your maiden but with the addition of Mrs Maiden name not Miss!

Is Sheridan your maiden name or a completely different name if so you will need the deed that you changed your name to.

Your parents birth certificates give proof of your maiden name, if it is only your Mum then your Maiden name would be the same as hers

In France a Woman only has a Birth certificate, on her Marriage that is added to the same certificate, so is her Death!!

At the Wedding in the Mairie the new couple get a Livre de Famille which is listed the Husbands and Wife's details and any subsequent children.

Certain State Agencies require a Birth certificate if you are French under 3 years old which you get from the town hall of your birth.

Certificates for French Nationals which were recorded outside the Hexagon are obtained now days via the net within three days.

You can change your address on line for multiple agencies:

https://www.changement-adresse.gouv.fr/ ... acceptJs=1


You can also download most secu forms filling them in before you print them off.

www.ameli.fr where you can also check your repayments

The deparartments normally want original certificates but you can get around this by going to the town hall and they will give you a copy of you original stampted Certificate conforming and signed with that days date send this off.


Hope this can assist you



Michael

[carol sheridan]

Thank you, Michael, it is very kind of you to take so much trouble.
Sheridan is neither my maiden name nor my married name - as I didn't like either of them I changed it by deed poll and I have the document certified by a solicitor in England and stamped.
They are not asking for my parents' birth certificates, thank goodness - they were both born in 1898 but I have no idea where - but a full birth certificate for me which gives my parents names.
I won't bother buying the book of rules, as I am well established in France, having made tax declarations for six years and having no family here. I thought I was happily installed in the health system too, as I had no problems in my last department - it was only when I had to change to a different CPAM that they started this ridiculous paper chase.
AS France accepts people from different countries as residents, I don't see how they can insist on us having the same documents that we would have had if we had been born here.
I will just soldier on , sending them everything they ask for and gritting my teeth!

[PaddyFrog]

AS France accepts people from different countries as residents, I don't see how they can insist on us having the same documents that we would have had if we had been born here. I

I think its more standardisation for Admin after all it doesn't matter whether you are a Martian, French, EU Citizen you have to produce the the same form to each different agency where as in the UK they accept so many variables that they have a far higher abuse of the system.

But also Non EU go through a far tougher entry system.


Michael

[carol sheridan]

I wonder what they do with refugee children who have no idea who their parents were or where they were born? It is sometimes impossible to produce the documents they demand. They must surely have some mechanism for dealing with people who do ot fit into the standard profile? Of course, this does not apply to me - I can get everything they ask for, albeit it will take some time and cost me a little money.
I am currently waiting for the English-speaking help line to call me back as the operator at
0820 904 212 told me she was not familiar with the yellow form 1103b.
I wonder if I would have been obliged to provide an E121 had I simply remained in Lot? I am assuming it is my change of departments which has caused this hiccough, but perhaps it has happened to everyone under the new rules.

[sue and paul]

Carol.
Firstly, let me sympathise with your dilemma. Secondly, don't give up !
Thirdly, let me tell you about new birth certificates.

I only had a short cert, which wasn't adequate for CPAM because it didn't have details of my parents on it. I went in person to the registry office in Manchester where I was born (not actually IN the registry office, you understand ! just for the wise-crackers). I paid the price not for ONE but TWO replacement long certs - £6 each, I think. It took them about 20 minutes to produce them, without an appointment. (I commented to my sister-in-law at the time how easy it was, perhaps open to abuse.)

When we got back here, I went with the new cert to CPAM, who photocopied it and gave it back to me. Paul's had already been accepted and photocopied by them. His was issued in 1945, had a 1d stamp on it, bearing the King's head, and a signature scrawled across the stamp.

A short time later I got a letter to say that my application was incomplete, because of a problem with my birth certificate. They asked me to get back in touch with the registry office and ask for a "correct one", with a stamp on it, a crown, or some such official GB symbol. I phoned Manchester, who said there IS only one form of a birth certificate, and to tell CPAM that it WOULDN'T photocopy, as it was watermarked through with crowns and coats of arms ( and no doubt ' Honi soit qui mal y pense' ) .

I went in person back to Perp, prepared to GIVE them one of my 2 originals to keep if they wanted it. In the end, they didn't want to keep the original, and a high-up supervisor came and signed a document to say that he had seen the original, and that it was genuine. I suggested that they should have known how the more modern GB certs were watermarked, and un-photocopiable, ( they can't be strangers to them) and could have saved us time and trouble.

This was received with the best Gallic shrug I've ever seen, and which I try to emulate whenever the situation demands.

[john]

That story sounds just like the fiasco WE had with birth and marriage certs when we first joined the CMU here.I pointed out the stunning news that they are not exactly the sames as Fr Certs de Naissance and Livrets de Famille,which came as a huge shock to the jobsworth woman behind the desk.

[carol sheridan]

I am wondering if my problems would have arisen if I had not moved departments. Has everybody been asked to provide an E121, or would I have been left in peace if I had stayed in Lot/
As I live in France, I can't go personally to Salford registry office, but it is easy to order on-line and I paid with my French bank card.
I am still waiting for someone from the English speaking help line tocall me back as the operator who answered my call did not know anything about the 1103b, which is the Declaration en Vue de L'Immatriculation d'un Pensionne. I would have thought it was quite useful to have someone on the help line who was actually familiar with the most important documents.

[groslard]

I have had to provide a 'livret d famille' on a couple of occasions, for example when I wanted to take my French pension.
Of course we don't have one in the UK, so I cobbled this together (this is the index) and it was accepted:


Famille de XXXX xxxxxx


Index


1) un extrait de l'acte de naissance de XXXX zzzzz (père)

2) un extrait d l'acte de décès de XXXXXXXX zzzz (père)

3) un extrait de l'acte de naissance de YYYYY sssss (mère)

4) un extrait d l'acte de décès de YYYY ssss (mère)

5) un extrait de l'acte de mariage des Parents

6) un extrait de l'acte de naissance de XXXX xxxxx

7) Traduction en français de l'acte de naissance de XXXXX xxxxx

8) Fiche Individuelle d'état civil de XXXX xxxx

9) Passeport britannique de XXXX xxxxx

10) la carte de Séjour française de XXXX xxxx

11) un extrait de l'acte de mariage de XXXXX xxxx et AAAAA aaaa

12) un extrait de l'acte de naissance de XXXXX bbbbb(fils)

13)jugement de divorce provisoire de XXXXX xxxx et AAAA aaaa

14)jugement de divorce définitif de XXXXX xxxx et AAAAA aaaa

and it was accepted, but with the obligatory 'dossier perdu' and 'pièce manquente' oat THREE stages.

I think the key to this problem is your change of name by deed poll, which the French don't understand. On the other hand i would have expected that once accepted by the CPAM in the Lot, that would be you in the system, with just a simple transfer of Caisse.
It sounds like you are being treated like a car, and have to have a new carte grise..
Perhaps you should go to the la casse not la caisse!
Only a joke..I do sympathise.

[Roger O]

Fortunately, when moving permanently to France, I did all that under the auspices of Amadeus - a large big-tax-paying implant 06 and via the Prefecture de Nice - which is used to all kinds of docs (including the "malette" kind offered by the immigrating Russian Mafiosi et al.) so there was no hassle. Of course the case was different too as I was coming to France with a CDI employment contract - so slipped more easily into the system. It also helped as I had a livret de famille due to being married to a French national.

However, the experience with the stamp etc on the birth cert - I have a similar one from 1938 - reminded me that the Swiss clerk didn't want to accept that when I married Annaïck (we were both foreigners to the Swiss, of course) and the "big boss" of the registration office had to point out to the clerk (after nearly an hour's wait) that this was the way the British do things.. that wasn't his actual comment, which was much more sarcastic...

So the French are not the only ones who rely on the "solid authenticity" of an "official stamp" from some admin office or other in another country which they cannot anyway verify! It's a typical "admin disease"!

I think I wrote once of a German TV writer who did a cynical film about the administration on a guy who had left Germany years ago (as German National) and lived in Africa or somewhere. He had lost his ID docs and when repatriated by his embassy on temp docs, was shocked to find at the "mairie" of his native town that he was listed as deceased. The film went on to follow him through months and months of his trials and tribulations to (unsuccessfully) prove he was still alive (also administratively!) with the end result that the poor guy got so depressed he committed suicide, thus closing the case and proving the administration to have been correct after all!

[Robert Ferrieux]

The French are not more stupid than anyone else… As law is primarily based on historical developments, legislation differs from one country to the next. There is no reason whatsoever why you should expect things to be as you knew them in your home country. When I lived in England, I too had to battle my way through a maze of red tape I wasn't used to. I did so willingly and without accusing the authorities of being either ignorant or stupid. I spared them the "I should have thought" which is so conveniently bandied about when one doesn't understand what's going on. Don't expect the world to come to you and adapt to your ways in your own language. You chose to live here because you knew it would be different, so please stop wondering, accept this difference and be grateful for it.
RF.

[carol sheridan]

I suppose I have been lucky in that after six years residency in France this is the first time I have had any problems with the bureaucracy.
I would be very interested to hear if anyone who has NOT moved departments had had any problems with health cover, if they fulfil the residency and age criteria.

[PaddyFrog]

I am wondering if my problems would have arisen if I had not moved departments. Has everybody been asked to provide an E121, or would I have been left in peace if I had stayed in Lot/

Carol,
I think every one realises that you have had "LOT" problems.





Michael

[john]

The French are not more stupid than anyone else… As law is primarily based on historical developments, legislation differs from one country to the next. There is no reason whatsoever why you should expect things to be as you knew them in your home country. When I lived in England, I too had to battle my way through a maze of red tape I wasn't used to. I did so willingly and without accusing the authorities of being either ignorant or stupid. I spared them the "I should have thought" which is so conveniently bandied about when one doesn't understand what's going on. Don't expect the world to come to you and adapt to your ways in your own language. You chose to live here because you knew it would be different, so please stop wondering, accept this difference and be grateful for it.
RF.

Robert,I don't think that anyone IS suggesting that the French are stupid.And certainly most of us accept that different countries have different forms of bureaucracy/paperwork by which we must abide. All that is being suggested is that French bureaucrats should themselves recognise the same de facto situation,and that "etrangers" may not necessarily be able to produce "French" pieces justificatifs at the drop of a hat.

[greeneyedmonster]

When I left the UK to come & live here 12 years ago, I didn't for one moment expect to sail through all the red tape without a problem. You have to be patient, accept he differences (otherwise I personally might as well have stayed in Bradford!), ask for help from those who know better, and....if you want to be accepted and happy here....stop bellyaching!!!
The fact that I have a French/Morrocan partner gives me the edge, of course, but otherwise I'd be humble and not rant against the system of a country I'd chosen to live in.

[carol sheridan]

Thank you for those of you who have posted helpful replies and have not attributed things to me which I clearly did not say.
I won't say I am stunned to be attacked personally and erroneously because it has happened to me before and I am therefore not surprised.
I have never mounted a personal attack on anyone, I love living in France and I am simply trying to find the right way to satisfy the demands of the French authorities.
I wonder why some people (usually the same people) find it necessary to be unkind and unpleasant , but it doesn't stop me finding most people extremely friendly and helpful.

[Colin L]

Unfortunately, Carol, both RF and GEM seem to see a description of your difficulties with bureaucracy as an attack on France and French ways rather than what it simply was - a description of your difficulties with bureaucracy. I expect many of us could tell tales of absurdly complex bureaucracy in the UK , but that's not the point, really, Any unnecessarily demanding and complicated system of paperwork in whatever country is worth taking issue with because it not only inconveniences the citizen but it also costs money - our money as taxpayers. Is this not behind M Sarkozy's intent to reduce the number of fonctionnaires in France?

If, as Carol thinks, she is having to follow this paperchase simply because she has changed from one department where she is already registered to another, that sounds to me a waste of her time and a waste of public money. It is no insult to France, nor a failure to accept French ways to decry unnecessary bureaucracy. It is the needless complication of simple administration that is the problem, whether French, British or Outer Mongolian. If the system is needlessly cumbersome, why not complain about it - it's no insult to the country or its people - many of whom have the same moans about their own country's bureaucracy anyway.

[carol sheridan]

Thank you, Colin, I couldn't have put it better myself - (in fact, I didn't put it better myself!).

[blackduff]

Carol
For the first ten years in France, we had to provide about ten different documents. Sometimes it changes but more or less, it's about ten. If I wanted to get my Carte de Sejour, I had to provide this information. In many cases, it never changed in the ten years (my marriage certificate never changed) but we had to provide this package. Both my wife, as well as me for each year's papers.

I always need to comply or things wouldn't continue. Finally it stopped in ten years and now life is lovely.

There's an expression I used to hear when I worked. "Things Happen, Just Deal With It" I've learned that this is a good method.

Blackduff

[carol sheridan]

Blackduff - what do you think I am trying to do?
I went through all the paperwork when I first retired to France, producing all necessary proof of my identity, pension rights, etc. I have been in the health system with a carte vitale for six years, so I assumed that my eligibility was established.
When you say 'deal with it' - what exactly are you suggesting I do that I am not already doing?

[carol sheridan]

Well, I have 'dealt with it'. I telephoned the CPAM at Perpignan and spoke to a very helpful lady who said I should just send whatever documents I had and a copy of my passport would do instead of a birth certificate, which I could send later.
It is quite hard for me to speak on the telephone in French as I am slightly deaf and find it hard to follow rapid French, but she understood me.
Whilst I am very happy living alone, it would sometimes be useful to have someone to talk to when problems arise, and that is why I find the forum so helpful.
Again, many thanks for all the good advice.

[opas]

Don`t get too complacent! We thought we had the routine off to a Tee.....last week we had a visit to a Hospital in Montpellier that we use about 3 times per year with our youngest, usually all I am asked for at the Accueil is my appointment letter and carte vital........last week I was asked for a piece of ID, so I went in my bag for the first thing that would come to hand(either my permis de conduire or TdJ.....) `non, madame , pour la petite!!!!!!!!` so as I do not carry her passport with me on a day to day basis I was given a printed form with various options on it (it was crossed for a piece of ID) and her Accueil sticker on to send a photocopy within 15 days.........failure to do this apparently knocks her off the system!!! logical I suppose, but if this system is new then perhaps it would have been a good idea to send a card out to follow up patients.

[carol sheridan]

Careful, Opas, you mustn't be critical - just deal with it.

[opas]

I did , the same as i dealt with the clerk in the office of the specialist we were waiting to see........she had us all down as waiting to have blood tests, at 18.05 after we had waited for 1.5 hours she informed me I would have to go back to the accueil to get tickets for myself, Outie and eldest, OK no problem.....the accueil was closed. so I told the proffessor who said tant pis, she would sort them out tomorrow for us, go and see the blood man.....the secretary chipped in and informed us that the main accueil was still open, 2 elderly patients laughed at her and told me not to listen and just go and get the blood taken (apparently the other office was a 2 k walk away at the other end of the Hospital1)

As Outie passed the office he heard the proff telling the clerk which programe she could use to print off her precious tickets!!!!! she looked a bit miffed that she had to do some real work for a change.

[Roger O]

Ah well, if anyone thinks any European burocracy is painful - try (just as an example) getting through passport and customs control in Lagos (Nigeria) without any folded banknotes in your passport and other docs - never mind any more complicated issues than that!!

[blackduff]

The Total France forum from Feb 17th, there's a very good post about the subject of this thread. I find that the posts came to a close on the 17th but now we're still talking about this subject.

Yet, this is the "Have a Moan" section.

Peter's Languedoc Page also had a lot of posting about the CPAM/E121. These posters are different people but the problems were similar.

Blackduff

[Robert Ferrieux]

I don't wish to offend anyone and I am sorry that you, Carol et al, should feel that you are under personal attack when I point out a few foibles usually shared by expatriates in any country. Yes, modern bureaucracy can be maddening everywhere. All this to say that, although I sometimes seem to be taking the mickey, I do sympathise with your difficulties. You usually agree that the forum should provide help, which I willingly give when I can, and also indulge in a bit of banter every now and then.
RF.
PS. Opas, when you need a bloodtest, don't go to the hospital. Go to a private laboratory at 8 a.m. without an appointment but with your Carte Vitale, and you'll have the results at 5 p.m. We go to Madame Daubin in Cabestany, next to the Crédit Agricole opposite the medical centre.

[PaddyFrog]

although I sometimes seem to be taking the mickey,

You Robert! Never!! Academics never indulge in Fun Joker Humour!!!





Michael