Market prices in summer

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Santiago
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Market prices in summer

Post by Santiago »

As you all probably know, I'm a big supporter of buying from markets and prodducers where possible but what I saw in Thuir market on Saturday was very disappointing.

The market was absolutely chocka. Probably 4 times as many people than usual because of the tourist season. There were lots of extra stands too, mostly selling tat.

But the thing that really surprised me was the obviously lower quality of the fruit and veg and, more annoyingly, the elevated prices to take advantage of the tourists. Even the generally reliable stalls were milking it. I saw haricots verts at 7,50€ a Kg. :shock:

Thank goodness we have Garcia's farm stand in Trouillas to fall back on.

PS: Before John gets on his hobby-horse about this confirming the high prices of market stalls and producers in general, let me say that what I saw this weekend stood out because it was abnormal.
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Re: Market prices in summer

Post by john »

Santiago wrote:

PS: Before John gets on his hobby-horse about this confirming the high prices of market stalls and producers in general, let me say that what I saw this weekend stood out because it was abnormal.
Love you too,Jon. Fortunately,I've known you for quite some time now,and realise you are a good sort of chap,and that there's no "bullying", or any other silly suggestion, intended in your remark.......

Perhaps you've misunderstood some of my postings on this. I've never said that markets/road stalls are rip off prices. I use them ,here and in Spain,quite a bit. All I've said is that my experience is that they are quite often no cheaper than shops,and certainly the quality is no better either. As I've often said,there is a time and a place for several sorts of suppliers,and the marketplace is big enough to support them all.
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Post by Sue »

Carrefour have been doing this for years. Before I moved over here I lived in a tourist area in Devon where it was standard practice for a certain bakery but thought I had left the practice behind but obviously not.
Further more when a french market came to our town in Devon (at a time when the euro was strong against the pound) all the french did was change the € sign to the £ thus making a vast profit.
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Post by Allan »

I don't know why this should come as a surprise to anybody.

Surely the essence of market trading like most forms of commerce is that prices are set by the rules of supply and demand. As the number of customers rises prices go up. Later in the day when customer numbers fall and stock is unsold then prices normally fall as well.

How is this any different to sales of wine, cars, clothes or any other commodity?

I know it seems hard on regular customers when they see their prices go up but the traders are just being commercial and have obviously judged that their profit gain outweighs the risk of alienating some people.
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Post by john »

That's fine Allan. I don't disagree with much of what you say. But,of course,it works both ways.

So ,presumably,in your spirit of unfettered,"market must decide",economics, you'll not object when those of us who refuse to pay rip-off prices choose to take our business elsewhere,using whatever facilities are at our disposal,including discount traders,grey market,parallel imports and copy goods etc ?
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Post by Allan »

john wrote:That's fine Allan. I don't disagree with much of what you say. But,of course,it works both ways.

So ,presumably,in your spirit of unfettered,"market must decide",economics, you'll not object when those of us who refuse to pay rip-off prices choose to take our business elsewhere,using whatever facilities are at our disposal,including discount traders,grey market,parallel imports and copy goods etc ?
I certainly wouldn't object to people taking their business elsewhere, indeed if lots of people did that then demand would fall and prices with them.

I'd change your statement slightly to 'using whatever LEGAL facilities are at our disposal'.

If you are asking me if I would condone theft, either physical or intellectual? then the answer is no.
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Post by john »

Agree totally,but then again,I never mentioned anything that's illegal !!
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Post by Santiago »

I suppose I was just warning people that the market prices of SOME stalls were a fair bit higher than usual. I also wondered if anyone had tried asking for a lower price as a regular customer.

Do the supermarkets do it here too? I don't think my local epicerie has put prices up but then I think she values regular clients above stinging a few tourists for a month.
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Post by Sue »

As mentioned previously Carrefour, Argeles do. I used to do a full shop there every week but now very rarely go in there. Surprising enough prices are cheaper at Carrefour Market, Laroque and Elne.
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Post by john »

Santiago wrote:IDo the supermarkets do it here too? I don't think my local epicerie has put prices up but then I think she values regular clients above stinging a few tourists for a month.
Maybe your local epicerie doesen't get much tourist footfall,Jon. Maybe she feels she is making enough with her prices anyway. As Allan says,it's about knowing your market and reacting to supply and demand .

It would be quite wrong to suggest that ALL supermarkets charge rip off prices to tourists during the season. None of the stuff that I buy regularly from Lidl,Leader Price or Netto has gone up in the last few weeks. And quality has been maintained. The peaches I bought recently from Netto in Céret were by some distance the best I've had this year. Far better than anything I've had from a market stall or any of the roadside guys.

I think Carrefour in Argeles is notorious for overcharging. I know it's difficult to prove,but apparently,it's the priciest branch of Carrefour outside of Paris !
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Post by Sue »

Just back from La Jong where I have stocked up on meat, dried fruit, gin, mayo and shower gel etc at far lower prices in France. There are some things I wouldnt touch because they are dearer than France!
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Post by malcolmcooper »

Interesting thread and I guess you'd expect me to comment.

On the subject of Carrefour Argeles I don't know for sure if they increase prices during the season or not but they sure do have the technology to do so. Those electronic price tags can be controlled instantly from the managers office and I guess it must be tempting. If they, or anyone else, from market trader to big store indulges in this practice I think it's very short sighted. I certainly wouldn't do it because my long term reputation is far more important and regular customers keep me in business for 10 months of the year.

I'm interested by the comment
most forms of commerce is that prices are set by the rules of supply and demand. As the number of customers rises prices go up.
I have to disagree. Actually as volume rises prices can and often do come down. Tesco make billions but they do so on a very slim overall net margin. They can afford to do that because of massive volumes. It's not just about buying power.

Imagine what say a microwave oven, television, mobile phone or even eggs would have to cost if the market was only a few hundred customers or more.

Once my fixed costs are covered the more I can do to reduce prices. In turn that should lead to increased volume and further reductions in prices and further increases in volume. Ultimately everyone wins, you get lower prices and I get a reduced percentage margin BUT make more actual cash to re-invest in the business. That's how it works. That's why you can buy a laptop for 299 whatevers.

Support your local shops and they can do more for you.
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Market prices

Post by Sue »

All I know is a leg joint or roti of pork I can pick up in Carrefour in winter for 3 or 4 euros is now 10 or 12 euros. Milk goes up too. From what I have seen it is mainly the meat counter which is affected.
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Post by john »

malcolmcooper wrote:Support your local shops and they can do more for you.
I'm sure,in theory ,Malcolm,there's some truth in what you say. In an ideal world.

The trouble is;we don't live in an ideal world.

And I'm sorry to keep banging on about this,but there are many of us who simply have not got the luxury of spare cash floating about for spending at places that may (or may not) do a perceived value added service ,some time in the future if,as you say, enough punters shop there.

With the fall in the value of our spending power ,what we need is maximum value over a wide range of goods ,and NOW .

And,the fact is that the Lidls,Aldis,Nettos,Leader Prices of this world do precisely that.
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Post by malcolmcooper »

do a perceived value added service ,some time in the future if,as you say, enough punters shop there.
I do it now, I have to be competitive or I wouldn't still be here. I've said before that I'm still here because I sell the best I can find at a competitive price. That's what epicerie means. It isn't the same model as Lidl. Lidl has its place and so do I.
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Post by john »

malcolmcooper wrote:[I do it now, I have to be competitive or I wouldn't still be here. I've said before that I'm still here because I sell the best I can find at a competitive price. That's what epicerie means. It isn't the same model as Lidl. Lidl has its place and so do I.
I think that the literal meaning of épicerie is "place where spices are sold",Malcolm.

What you have said is basically what I said re this yesterday...ie there is room in the market for all sorts of suppliers.

The point I am making,though,is that you are never going to be able to get the economies of scale that are enjoyed by multinationals like Lidl . No matter how hard you try,so qed only a very small number of people are going to be able to afford to shop regularly at places like yours,and the rest of the spending is going to be on specialist items that the big boys don't stock.

The dichotomy is whether smaller places will be able to survive on trade like that,and whether people will "support" them out of a sense of loyalty,when,in the end, the economic realities of feeding the family for less are as strong as they are.
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Post by malcolmcooper »

whether smaller places will be able to survive on trade like that
You may well be right. I have a good base of regulars who are very happy with the quality and value I offer. I'm not expensive, I just sell really good stuff. In the end there may not be enough customers in this area who appreciate that.
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Post by john »

Don't get me wrong,Malcolm, I do not wish your type of enterprise anything but all the best luck in the world,and am glad you're doing OK.

But I come from an area of the UK that's seen literally hundreds of small groceries/village stores go to the wall over the last 20 or so years.

Like you,many sold "top quality " goods,but,to put it bluntly ,did not sell enough of them to enough people to survive in the face of competition firstly from Tesco etc and,more latterly Lidl etc.

And,I'm the first to admit that I gave up using the small shops because I found their range limited,the prices too high,and the quality no better than the supermarkets.
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Post by malcolmcooper »

Firstly I would never have considered setting up a shop like mine in the UK because you're right, I could not have been competitive. Here however I did my homework first and was surprised to find that I could easily compete with the mainstream, not just against their English shelves either.

In the UK I did the bulk of my packaged and frozen shopping at Tesco. I bought some stuff from Lidl too and special treat from M&S. However I stopped buying fruit & veg or meat from the supermarkets because it didn't taste of anything. I went to my local butcher for most meat and for beef I went directly to a local farm shop. I don't mind an extra couple of quid to get proper flavour.

We're all different though.
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Post by Santiago »

Supermarkets and discount stores have their place and I use them when they offer the best alternative. Lidl is only good for certain things (beer, cheese, pasta, loo roll and tinned toms) but it would be a real challenge to only shop there. Carrefour and Tescos try to provide everything that we want on a weekly basis and their strongpoint is convenience. They aren't actually cheaper or better on all items than smaller shops.

Wine is a good example. I'm sure loads of people buy lots of their wine at the supermarket but you can get better wine at every price point by shopping elsewhere. Coops sell BIBs and vrac of a higher quality and lower price than most of the brands supermarkets carry, certainly the cheap bottled wines. Many cavistes have wine in the 3.50-6.00 mark that knocks the socks of the supermarket selection in that bracket.

Spices are cheaper and better at the Asian shops, so is rice and noodles. Usually :( many vegetables are cheaper at the market than in the supermarket. Charcuterie in all the supermarkets is of a low quality and not that cheap.

Not all products can be mass-produced, mass-distributed and sold at low margins.

So, in short, I don't think we should support local independent shops just because they are small and independent but we should not assume that the supermarket always offers best value.

Also, what's the point of being a member of one of the richest economic communities on Earth if we have to hunt around in discount stores for low-priced food.
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Post by Sue »

I may be a member of one of the richest economies on earth but that doesnt mean to say I have any spare money and therefore have to budget for what I buy hence shopping in the likes of Lidl and Aldi. We dont all have long pockets containing a bottomless pit of money to go out and pay for the best at top prices. I can assure you we would if we could!
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Post by john »

Santiago wrote:Also, what's the point of being a member of one of the richest economic communities on Earth if we have to hunt around in discount stores for low-priced food.
I can feel the fustration in Sue's voice because everything that Santiago had written in his posting was eminently sensible.....up till that point.

I too get extremely annoyed by the assumption from traders that we,the general public ,all have shed loads of cash to lavish on whatever takes our fancy. When will they realise that being asked to cough up 25 € for a kilo of meat or 20€ for a bog standard bottle of wine,or 5€ for a bar of chocolate just simply is not realistic for the vast majority of folk ?

Yes,Malcolm, now and again,I will go to a local butcher and shell out large sums of money for a(supposedly more flavoursome) piece of steak. But it will be now and again,simply because I have not got the money to do it all the time. So,yes,I will hunt around for better prices,because,if I dont, what bit of money I earn will disappear too fast. Period.
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Post by Sue »

I was feeling frustrated John you are right because there are people out there who just dont seem to understand that not all of us are wealthy or have huge work pensions. Despite the high food costs overall it is still cheaper to live here. We have no mortgage, our water is from a well, we have septic tank drainage so no huge water/sewage bills as we would have in England and where I would still be having to work. But a state OAP pension and very small private pension do not go far!
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Post by john »

There are myths and legends emanating from both sides in this field, Sue.

I'd agree that supermarkets use smoke and mirrors tactics to suggest lower prices. Often the prices on offer are available,at best,rarely.

But there is also some guff spouted by the local traders too. Like the one that quality is automatically better. Jon cites BiB wine. If what he says is true then why is it that the BIB from my local Co-op is at least 2 € per 5 litre box cheaper at Intermarché than it is directly from the Co-op. Or is he suggesting that the wine they put in the BiBs they send to Intermarché is of inferior quality to that which they sell in their own shop ?

The truth is that appreciable numbers of folk fall for the hype from ALL sources. It's only when you scratch beneath the surface veneer that you see how many lies are peddled.
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Post by malcolmcooper »

It may clarify my point if I just ask a genuine question.

I have can get two types of back bacon. The first is a 227g pack frozen. It's typical supermarket bacon, nothing "wrong" with it. It's mass produced, will expel some water, white stuff and shrink a bit when cooking but it's OK. The price is 3.75 euro.

The second is fresh, dry cured bacon from an award winning English master butcher based in Normandy. There's no water or white stuff and it doesn't shrink when cooking. Just pure meat. The price for 227g is 4.60 euro.

Which one should I stock?
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Post by Allan »

malcolmcooper wrote:It may clarify my point if I just ask a genuine question.

I have can get two types of back bacon. The first is a 227g pack frozen. It's typical supermarket bacon, nothing "wrong" with it. It's mass produced, will expel some water, white stuff and shrink a bit when cooking but it's OK. The price is 3.75 euro.

The second is fresh, dry cured bacon from an award winning English master butcher based in Normandy. There's no water or white stuff and it doesn't shrink when cooking. Just pure meat. The price for 227g is 4.60 euro.

Which one should I stock?
Surely that's a question only you can answer. The choice of any product for sale is determined by margin, investment in stock, customer demand, stock wastage, competitive activity, how well it suits your target market and a whole host of other factors that only you can assess.
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Post by malcolmcooper »

Asking people what they want is a pretty good method too.
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Post by Allan »

malcolmcooper wrote:Asking people what they want is a pretty good method too.
And that differs from 'customer demand' how?

What people want is only one factor in a complex equation but its fair to say if nobody wants it most other factors are irrelevant.
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Post by Sue »

I think we are all guilty to some extent of going that extra mile for something better. I know I am but its all down to the degree of the amount I am paying extra. I have bought tomatoes today in a small local producer because the taste is far superior to anything I can buy in Aldi or Lidl. I have bought ice cream lollies today in Piccards because there is more choice than in Aldi or Lidl. To answer your question Malcolm yes if the packet weights were the same and the prices as you quote I would go for the dearer one.
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Post by malcolmcooper »

Blimey, it's a simple enough question! All of the other factors you mention are roughly equal. Both products are back bacon. Asking people what they want is what I do all day and largely determines what I carry. Asking the question here is no different to that. I find it hard to see why a question so simple should launch such a debate.
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