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We have just had to fill out forms for "Declaration de choix du medecin traitant".

The form seems to require that my wife gives her maiden name followed by her married name. Is she supposed to sign it in her maiden name or use her normal signature?

I read that since the 1789 Revolution, the law stipulates that "no one may use another name than that given on his birth certificate".

All seems a bit confusing - from what I have seen, french women tend to take their husband's name but what is the position on official documents?

Thankfully Allen,
A woman only assumes her husbands name, her legal name in most countries including France and the UK is her maiden name.

That does not stop most men presuming they own their wives. maybe that male attitude reflect the high divorce rate amongst us 50's - 60's careerer women.

ChristineM wrote:Thankfully Allen,
A woman only assumes her husbands name, her legal name in most countries including France and the UK is her maiden name.

That does not stop most men presuming they own their wives. maybe that male attitude reflect the high divorce rate amongst 50's - 60's careerer women.

Thank you for the feminist viewpoint but it doesn't really answer my question.

She has a normal signature which is in her married name - should she use that or should she sign in her maiden name?

As for the UK, I believe a married woman is free to choose whether or not she adopts her hubands name but I have never seen an official form that REQUIRES her to use her maiden name.

Allen, I have never seen any documentation in the UK that required me to use my Ex's name!

If you read the document there is a section that asks for the name of the Wife or Husband and when you sign you clearly state that you are signing as Miss, Mrs or even Mr. The name that you are generally known as.

I hope this clears up any Masculine misunderstanding.

I have always signed everything in my married name and have no objection to doing so either in this or my previous marriage. CPAM seems to refer, predominantly to my maiden name but they have never insisted I sign papers with it. I think you can safely assume that your wife can sign in her married name.

Sue wrote:I have always signed everything in my married name and have no objection to doing so either in this or my previous marriage. CPAM seems to refer, predominantly to my maiden name but they have never insisted I sign papers with it. I think you can safely assume that your wife can sign in her married name.

Our documentation in France has always had my maiden name on it, even on our deeds, but I signed in my married name, and been proud to do so for the last 30+ years, and still my own person.

The maiden name thing obviously is there to trace your history, they may well at some point ask for your birth certificate (unless anyone was adopted..........there lies another shedload of documentation )
I am forever getting letters with my maiden name on, I even have cheques from les impots for my business with them on, I put them in my bank account in my married name, which is the only name I have used since 1985, If I was ever asked to sign something in my maiden name now it would not be my orriginal signature!
The bank accepts these cheques, they have copies of my birth cert . thus know who I am.

Sue wrote:CPAM seems to refer, predominantly to my maiden name

As they are responsible for the health of all French residents, surely they know from experience which status of a woman is better for their health.

I know which is better for my health sister !

Everybody seems to think it's a special regulation. My wife sometimes her maiden name, my family name, and often both names together. These names are used for formal reasons but it's not written that I know.

The deviations here in France with anglo names: My name often is Donald, Mac. My wife uses her maiden name mixed into the Donalds. It's funny but I don't worry. It can be sorted, if there's a problem.

Blackduff

Interesting all this because soon to be irrelevant. Here's a bit of rough stuff from an article I am just finishing researching for the next P-O Life

The govt has decided to scrap the word mademoiselle.

Adult women will all be madame and the practice of asking women for their nom de jeune fille (maiden name) on forms is to go too. New forms will not have this.
.official forms are to be redesigned to get rid of sexist questions and titles.

Ministers and prefects have been told in a circular from the Prime Minister's office to drop wherever possible the terms Mademoiselle, Nom d’épouse, Nom patronymique and Nom de jeune fille from documents, although old forms will continue to be used until supplies run out.

The term Madame will be used as the direct feminine equivalent of Monsieur where possible.

Lots more on that when I actually get round to writing it up

A quote from someone else about his subject that I wrote down but cant remember where from.....
“The more cynical point out that it's an election season and this could simply be a move to grab votes — and, truly, it's hardly on the same level as fighting for birth control and abortion rights. Or, ending a set of social rules that, you could say, allow for the doings of certain men we've seen in the news a lot lately.”

In case anyone is interested....I am, like all married French women, officially
Madame Harris Helen épouse Ferrieux and everything is signed Helen Ferrieux.
I can't think why Nom de jeune fille, Nom d'épouse, etc. are to be dropped. And why should any married woman not wish to be called Madame Him? (unless she's known professionally by her maiden name,
e.g. Elizabeth Taylor...yes, of course, she wouldn't have gone under her husbands' names

I am in total agreement Helen

Robert Ferrieux wrote: And why should any married woman not wish to be called Madame Him? (unless she's known professionally by her maiden name,)

If you get divorced in France, you have to seek written permission from your ex to continue using your adopted name. Stick to your maiden name then you never have to ask permission from any man.

And why should any married woman not wish to be called Madame Him?

I suppose it's really a matter of having a choice. Personally, it doesn't bother me either way (I've been called far worse in my time!) but I can understand how many women today might not wish to change their name, be judged on their marital status etc What does it actually change? Why should they? Maybe there should be an option for a man to take his wife's name when they marry and forms could be changed to nom de jeune homme!

Sue wrote:I am in total agreement Helen

As I understood it, it is not a question of obliging married women to use either their married or their single name, but of ending the obligation to give both (and disclose their marital status) when there is no corresponding obligation for men. For the future men and women will just have a nom, and be M and Mme. That also helps with the other issue - that single women are now Mlle, and disclose that they are single, although they may have been Mme (like my 66 year old single sister) for non-official purposes for many years. The point, again, is obviously that there is no corresponding distinction for men.

correction martyn94, Mlle n'existe pas !
last year this tittle disappeared. My 19 year old daughter now has all her letters addressed to Mme.....really confusing if they do not add an initial as I automatically open them.
We all get infuriated at this, me because Mme is in my mind Mrs, her because she is young, not Married. I suppose one could argue that M has no boundries, ie single or Married a male is Monsieur.

Speaking as a gal with 2 forenames, a double-barrelled maiden name, and a married name, I can well do without the official-address on letters that occasionally come my way! The names are always in the order of ...Mme + married name + maiden name(s) + 2 forenames. Phew! Mme + married name will do for me - that's the only one in the list I actually chose for myself !

Sheridan is neither my maiden name or my married name - I chose it after my divorce and have a deed to prove it. I have taken to leaving out my married name on French forms as it only confuses them, so I just put my maiden name and my current name. I have my paper trail ready, including my change of name deed and decree absolute
I sometimes get forms addressed to me with both my maiden name and my current name.

I can see why a woman would not want to be known as as her husbands' wife, but as her own person, but I didn't like my father's name (or him) any more than I liked my husband's name (or him) so I chose my own name. A woman taking her husband's name on marriage is redolent to me of a wife being seen as her husband's possession. Some men do take their wife's name, if it is one they both like.
My daughters agreed to change theirs too, in their late teens. Two of my grandsons have Sheridan as their middle name.


Names are important - they are part of our identity.

The only difficulty with a married couple not having the same name is when it comes to sending them a card - my niece doesn't use her husband's name but she doesn't mind cards addressed to Mr. and Mrs. X.

What happens in Scandanavia intrigues me - if the son of Magnus is Magnusson what is the grandson called?

Magnusgrandson??

Magnum for short

No, surely that would be Magnus's mum's name!

carol sheridan wrote:What happens in Scandanavia intrigues me - if the son of Magnus is Magnusson what is the grandson called?

It certainly exists too in Scotland and Ireland. Take MacDonald, if when you have a son called Donald, don't you have "Donald, son of Donald"?

Blackduff

From Helen

[

quote="carol sheridan"]

I can see why a woman would not[ want to be known as as her husbands' wife, but as her own person

This beats me! Why should a woman not want to be known as her husband's wife, unless of course she's ashamed of the guy?
Also, does Miss/Mrs/Ms Sheridan mean that once a woman ties the knot, she is no longer her own person? Please expound! Surely we (usually) choose to marry, & lose nothing of our individuality by doing so. On the contrary, we become indivisible!

What happens in Scandanavia intrigues me - if the son of Magnus is Magnusson what is the grandson called?

[/quote]

Magnuffisont?

opas wrote:correction martyn94, Mlle n'existe pas !
last year this tittle disappeared. My 19 year old daughter now has all her letters addressed to Mme.....really confusing if they do not add an initial as I automatically open them.
We all get infuriated at this, me because Mme is in my mind Mrs, her because she is young, not Married. I suppose one could argue that M has no boundries, ie single or Married a male is Monsieur.

I think you are making the same point that I was trying to. The idea is exactly that Mlle will disappear as an "official" title: your daughter's correspondents just seem to be ahead of the game. No doubt it will remain in use privately, when the "titlee" positively wants it. It is because M has "no boundaries" that women are thought entitled to a title which works the same way: no doubt we will all make the mental adjustments rapidly enough.

Well, let's put it another way, Helen. Why *should* a woman take her husband's name on marriage?

Ah, so *.....* doesn't put a word in italics on this site!

carol sheridan wrote:Well, let's put it another way, Helen. Why *should* a woman take her husband's name on marriage?

Maybe this would work: "Why <i>should</i> take her ....

Blackduff

Hmmm. That didn't work neither.

We can maybe just use the should with this bracket.

Blackduff

carol sheridan wrote:

Well, let's put it another way, Helen. Why *should* a woman take her husband's name on marriage?

Good question, Carol.
Speaking only for myself: 'cos I'm durned proud of my husband's name & consider it a bit of an honour to be Mme. F
It also makes it easier for others to know who "belongs" (ouch) to whom!
But seriously you're right, and there should to be no "should" about it. It's just conventional.
Incidentally , our elder son, who lives in Denmark, is known as Flight Surgeon Ferrieux-Brodslev (his wife's maiden name). Maybe that's a happy balance.


Helen

Click on the i to put into italics